How to fix F1?

[morninggents]

I also agree with Coppice.


Pirelli is not the problem. The problem (amongst a few others) is that the rule cars must use at least two compounds is yet another farcical artificial attempt to spice up boring racing. What other justification is there for mandating the use of two compounds? Why not make tyre choice free with no necessity to make any pitstops. If a team can produce a car that is light on tyres and there is a compound hard enough to last a GP distance/time then let that team compete against others that wish to make one or more stops on softer tyres. At the same time do away with the ludicrously soft tyres with the lifespan of a gnat's memory and replace with the three compounds suggested by BJS a few posts back. The compounds could be set before the first race and remain unchanged for the full season with fairly wide performance characteristics between each type. This must surely reduce costs somewhat and at the same time get rid of the (yet again) artificial condition of teams having to start on the same tyres they qualified with. The other artificial rule of the use of DRS (or whatever it is called now) should also be junked at the same time and the fuel flow regulation too. All restrictions, all artificial, all crap.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Because the soft set might be fine for Monaco, but barely survive a lap at Barcelona. Meanwhile, Barcelona hard set might be ok, but you won't get heat into them, at say, Hungary.

To be fair to Pirelli, whilst the current set of tyres are crap and the reasons why aren't much better, the compounds have always been like this, just named better. Even in the Bridgestone and Michelin days, they'd bring 2 compounds, but it wasn't the same compounds every week, it just looked it.

Pirellis mistake with the compounds isn't having too many, but how they name them. Who cares if we use Ultra Soft and Hyper Soft at Monaco. What we need to know is which is which. So call them Hard and Soft. Same at Silverstone. Medium and Hard? Call them Hard and Soft. It doesn't matter what is what when compared to circuit to circuit - it matters what is what on any given weekend. So if you're taking multiple compounds then name them relevant to the weekend.

The teams already do this. Option and Prime. It's purely marketing reasons that has all these names and colours, and that has backfired now the range has more options.

They race on a wide variety of surfaces in IndyCar. Street courses like Detroit and St. Pete have more than one surface and they only use one hard and soft compound, not compounds tailor made for each track. So, why can't F1?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

They race on a wide variety of surfaces in IndyCar. Street courses like Detroit and St. Pete have more than one surface and they only use one hard and soft compound, not compounds tailor made for each track. So, why can't F1?

IndyCar actually spends a lot of money trying to solve this problem (and does not solve it fully). Note here, where they talk about a compound which is meant to be a hard, but can also be used as an option.

https://globalsports.news/2018/02/20...our-compounds/

IndyCar does exactly what F1 used to do. It uses more than 2 compounds, but only brings 2 to each track and uses them appropriately. IndyCar has more than 2, you just wouldn't know it because they're sensible about.

F1 isn't the only series that has lots of different tyres. It's just the only series that makes the fuss about it. WEC/ELMS have different tyre compounds but you'd never notice. Largely these are used for when temperatures drop when the sun goes down, but it's still something teams deal with. To the fans, it doesn't look any different.

I'm not a Pirelli fan, but the only issue with the number of tyre compounds is how they are marketed. If they only declared a hard and a soft each weekend then nobody would notice the number of compounds and everyone would be less confused. I agree it all looks silly, but just some simple renaming would solve that one.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Success in injecting some variability into the racing outside the controll of team engineers.
Success in requiring a skill beyond that demonstrable in a simulator by drivers.
Success in allowing the racing to have a strategic and tactical awareness by the race teams.

for me it is this.

the uncertainty surrounding the tires is one of the few things the teams and drivers cant control so this a positive to me. if anything i want there to be more things outside of their control and certainly beyond the ability for their money to predict.

limiting their choices or providing only one compound for an entire race just makes things easier no? easier for the teams, easier for the drivers, easier for us to understand...

[coppice]

Originally Posted by Casper

Why criticise Pirelli if you already know it isn't their fault? I just don't get all the criticism that they cop when the people writing the criticism should know the situation as they have been told often enough. And no, I don't use their tyres and never have.

Give me strength ... my point was that any tyres which wear out in 5 minutes are a bad advert for their maker , whoever that may be. I mentioned Pirelli by name for the reason which is obvious - they make them . And yes yes , before you have another funny turn , I do know that the rules require the tyres to be crap .



But if you calm down a little and think about it - I know and you know that it isn't Pirelli's fault but the casual viewer doesn't . All he or she sees is a single car consuming 12 tyres in less than 200 miles and less than 2 hours driving

[chillibowl]

about the advertising...do casual viewers even pick up on any of this debate or do they just see the numerous placards posted around the track and then perhaps will one day will say 'hey i recognize that brand name so i'll buy that set of tires'?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

Some people do not want to admit that the FIA specifies the tyres and to break a legally binding contract would not be a good thing. Seriously are you saying that the tyre supplier should sign on the dotted line then tell the FIA to get stuffed and supply what the tyre company company thinks should be supplied. What are you smoking to suggest that, to do that would be dishonest and deceitful and bring the supplier into a legal conflict with the FIA.

Thanks for the abuse chap.

I am saying that Pirelli lack integrity in signing a contract to produce inferior product in the first place!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Actually I think a lot of the contributors to this thread are talking not about failiures but about about Pirrelli's success.
Success in injecting some variability into the racing outside the controll of team engineers.
Success in requiring a skill beyond that demonstrable in a simulator by drivers.
Success in allowing the racing to have a strategic and tactical awareness by the race teams.

Can you please nominate exactly what you want fron racing that doesn't include those skill sets?

Racing on the track between the drivers, if in doubt as to what that means, review the 2018 MotoGP season where the skill sets translated into on track racing and not a confected victory manufactured by pit strategy or caused by a tyre failure. The choices are there but the on track racing is obligatory, not an occasional accident.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by coppice

Give me strength ... my point was that any tyres which wear out in 5 minutes are a bad advert for their maker , whoever that may be. I mentioned Pirelli by name for the reason which is obvious - they make them . And yes yes , before you have another funny turn , I do know that the rules require the tyres to be crap .

Yes.

Apparently the Michelin World Series by Renault tyres only lose 1.5 seconds over a stint, whereas the Pirelli GP2 tyres (same as pre-2017 F1 tyres) lose 6 seconds over a stint... According to the World Series by Renault teams.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by wnut

Racing on the track between the drivers, if in doubt as to what that means, review the 2018 MotoGP season where the skill sets translated into on track racing

Only because there was more than one team at a top level. In F1, with only one team at a top level, what can be expected other than a Hamilton cleansweep!?

Crucially, Honda Racing possesses the conviction and racing spirit to place a second world champion rider onto their second motorcycle. Mercedes-AMG F1 however do not appear to have such a racing spirit, preferring the services of Valteri "wingman" Bottas. :/

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

about the advertising...do casual viewers even pick up on any of this debate or do they just see the numerous placards posted around the track and then perhaps will one day will say 'hey i recognize that brand name so i'll buy that set of tires'?

No they don't, and, yes they do.

[rbs]

Recognise the brand Rolex but could never afford one!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Only because there was more than one team at a top level. In F1, with only one team at a top level, what can be expected other than a Hamilton cleansweep!?

Crucially, Honda Racing possesses the conviction and racing spirit to place a second world champion rider onto their second motorcycle. Mercedes-AMG F1 however do not appear to have such a racing spirit, preferring the services of Valteri "wingman" Bottas. :/

And lousy tyres fix a lousy field of cars, caused by an inability to produce a set of rules that enables racing?

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by wnut

And lousy tyres fix a lousy field of cars, caused by an inability to produce a set of rules that enables racing?

Please can you define, describe or exemplify the sort of racing you want enabled?


Meanwhile Ross Brawn is promoting an "exchange of technical information between established manufacturers and new entrants".

Now that should really encourage the Boards and research departments at Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda.

[S griffin]

Where are the new entries Liberty said they would encourage to enter?

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Where are the new entries Liberty said they would encourage to enter?

Those probably gave up after seeing Liberty flip flop on the 2021 regs.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Please can you define, describe or exemplify the sort of racing you want enabled?


Meanwhile Ross Brawn is promoting an "exchange of technical information between established manufacturers and new entrants".

Now that should really encourage the Boards and research departments at Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda.

The post number 901 by morningents neatly encapsulates what the tyre situation should be, or a vast improvement on the current situation at least.
The tyres should additionally be able to recover when they have been pushed too hard, they should not just overheat and die.

Grand Prix racing should involve close and exciting on track action, again MotoGP is getting it right, you have a mix of winners and very close racing where the rider makes a difference. There are no pay riders in MotoGP simply because there is no place for them.

I expect nothing but disappointment from Ross Brawn, Mercedes is sure to share its billion dollar secrets with the rest of the grid, and everyone else is struggling in comparison.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Please can you define, describe or exemplify the sort of racing you want enabled?

C'mon now mate. You know dang well what sort.
My only concern is it already exists in the form of IndyCar and yet so many still complain about the precipice that is F1.
The reason it's not enjoyed and F1 (that's not "real" racing I hear...) forgotten about eludes my understanding.

[Oldtony]

Was being a bit devious with my question.
Like beauty, good racing is very much in the eye of the beholder and changes with exposure, age, mood, the company you are with and very much between whether you are participating or spectating.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Was being a bit devious with my question.
Like beauty, good racing is very much in the eye of the beholder and changes with exposure, age, mood, the company you are with and very much between whether you are participating or spectating.

I think that's rather well said. Shall we close the thread now......?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I think that's rather well said. Shall we close the thread now......?

What, has F1 been fixed?

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

What, has F1 been fixed?

How does one fix what is not broken???

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by jimclark

How does one fix what is not broken???

Clearly the world we see is based upon a personal viewpoint. Some see that F1 (in its current guise) has serious issues, others think things are fine as is. Time will tell who is right.

Richard

[wnut]

Epic Richard!

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Clearly the world we see is based upon a personal viewpoint. Some see that F1 (in its current guise) has serious issues, others think things are fine as is. Time will tell who is right.

Richard

Time won't "tell" in regard to "viewpoint" (taste, opinion). It is what it is at the moment. One's viewpoint, taste, opinion or whatever one calls it is neither "right" nor "wrong", no?
I had a couple of AMC vehicles (my first car a '67 American, and a '74 Gremlin daily driver that became a race car) and loved the products. AMC folded but that doesn't make my appreciation of it's cars any less "right". 'Keepin' my eyes out for another Gremlin as we post....