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Old 5 Apr 2017, 23:13 (Ref:3724009)   #16
Richard Casto
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Funny you should mention a torque sensor. That was the plan the ACO put in place, was to have this mandated on all cars. That's the reason Porsche have given for them developing a brand new NA car, whilst everybody else went turbo. The ACO never did go down the torque sensor route and the result is Porsche regretting not using a turbo motor in the new GTE car.
I don't know the history of why they didn't require torque sensors in GTE in the recent past. It may have been cost, it may have been that with what we have now (performance measurements that are far removed from atomic, foundational and objectively measurable components plus... flawed restriction methods such as sonic air restrictors) manufactures think they can (and do) game the system to their advantage. Everyone likes loopholes to exist because they always think they can play the politics game better than the next guy.

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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Not that you should be balancing the GTE cars IMO, as it's meant to be a manufacturer backed development class.
It's clearly an opinion thing. I don't know what the answer is (i.e. BoP or something else).

I think the problem is that if you base the cars upon production machines, that if a manufacturer wants to win, they will build a purpose built road car to match whatever the ideal technical solution would be for the technical regulations. Maybe the Ford GT is an example of that. Then what happens when everyone gravitates toward the same solution? It may look like what is happening today... slow migration to mid-engine turbo cars. It just becomes a somewhat spec series with the winner being whoever wants to spend the most money and can play the political game the best. Plus, not a lot of real diversity in the type and style in the cars other than livery and the manufacture badges on the cars. They might as well be another class of prototypes!

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Old 6 Apr 2017, 01:00 (Ref:3724022)   #17
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The torque sensors were supposed to outright replace air restrictors, which would basically leave us with the sanctioning body controlling the performance of the engine directly. That fits with the (often forgotten) intent of GT3 to have heavily production based spec cars running together but it's not something the manufacturers were ever going to accept in GTE even with the homologated engines and constant restrictor tweaks to try to neutralize any performance improvements.

Homologation specials tend to be a failing of the homologation requirements. There's no way an ultra limited production hypercar like the Ford GT should be racing 911s and Corvettes to start with but somehow it's supposed to be a great idea because BoP will fix it. (just like it fixed the MC12 to 5 straight FIA GT championships)
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 01:17 (Ref:3724026)   #18
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Unfortunately, air restrictors are probably here to stay in GTE unless they go to a fuel flow restrictor to limit power, which I fear that will open it's own can of worms. Torque sensors will cost just as much probably, and they don't limit top end power, just low end torque.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 01:22 (Ref:3724027)   #19
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I think LeBron James needs a ballast on his ankle and a air restrictor to tire him out quicker. You know to help balance the Cavs performance with the Brooklyn Nets. BoP right!
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 02:09 (Ref:3724030)   #20
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
Unfortunately, air restrictors are probably here to stay in GTE unless they go to a fuel flow restrictor to limit power, which I fear that will open it's own can of worms. Torque sensors will cost just as much probably, and they don't limit top end power, just low end torque.
The torque sensor is only to monitor reality. It does nothing by itself to limit performance. So they should (in conjunction with other data) document the entire performance envelope of the engine.

I feel I am coming across too negative about all of this. I think the more scientific approach is right and even if they are not measuring the right things now, maybe they will in the future. It's hard to solve all problems at the same time.

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Old 6 Apr 2017, 04:12 (Ref:3724041)   #21
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Originally Posted by MaskedRacer View Post
I think LeBron James needs a ballast on his ankle and a air restrictor to tire him out quicker. You know to help balance the Cavs performance with the Brooklyn Nets. BoP right!
LeBron has been BoPed before and possibly now. It's called "Cleveland".
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 04:32 (Ref:3724053)   #22
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
The torque sensor is only to monitor reality. It does nothing by itself to limit performance. So they should (in conjunction with other data) document the entire performance envelope of the engine.

I feel I am coming across too negative about all of this. I think the more scientific approach is right and even if they are not measuring the right things now, maybe they will in the future. It's hard to solve all problems at the same time.

Richard
And yes, if there's going to be BOP, a series should use all data it can get to reach their conclusions. The more data to consider, the more complete the picture, hopefully the more accurate the results.

However, if you want to see negativity, read my posts in the "Getting Tired of Racing" thread. Granted, back in some of those days I yearn for, BOP wasn't no where near as big a deal as it is now. Sadly, a combination of things drive modern BOP, including costs, teams wanting results fast, limiting speeds between classes, etc.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 04:39 (Ref:3724055)   #23
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The one and only official 10/10ths BOP thread

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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post

I don't see this solving anything, and it's open to abuse. BOP is great...for GT3 cars. But GTE is a development class, and BOP goes against that.

Since when is GTE a development class? It's the exact opposite. They only get a lemans aero and a non lemans aero package that they must use for the rest of the season. The end game for GTE is one where teams win based on strategy, pit stop speed and a bit of luck. ACO want all of the GTE cars to run the same ultimate lap time at every track if that was easy to achieve. I'm not against that, because that's the only thing you can do for GTE to remain sustainable considering it's not the class for the overall victory.


What you're hinting at and what we'd all like to see with GTE isn't actually sustainable nor worth it if they aren't racing for overall victory which is why it won't happen.

Last edited by Articus; 6 Apr 2017 at 04:47.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 05:08 (Ref:3724058)   #24
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LeBron has been BoPed before and possibly now. It's called "Cleveland".


Perhaps the biggest BoP was letting him and two other superstars form a mega team in Miami, but the league didn't allow Chris Paul to join the Lakers....such BS!!!
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 07:02 (Ref:3724075)   #25
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The lmp1 eot is basically based on the best in class. Should do that in gte. If the Ferrari is the most efficient in fuel, bop up the others up in tank size to compensate.

They need to be careful because you don't really want them to go to the other areas like the equalizing wing angles and gurneys etc. That's my gripe with the imsa prototype bop. Every car has to be equalized if it's going to be a bop class. But where do you draw the line?
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 07:33 (Ref:3724076)   #26
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Originally Posted by Articus View Post
Since when is GTE a development class? It's the exact opposite. They only get a lemans aero and a non lemans aero package that they must use for the rest of the season. The end game for GTE is one where teams win based on strategy, pit stop speed and a bit of luck. ACO want all of the GTE cars to run the same ultimate lap time at every track if that was easy to achieve. I'm not against that, because that's the only thing you can do for GTE to remain sustainable considering it's not the class for the overall victory.


What you're hinting at and what we'd all like to see with GTE isn't actually sustainable nor worth it if they aren't racing for overall victory which is why it won't happen.
GTE has always been a development class. It was always about who developed the best car - that's what a development class is. It has a defined set of technical regulations, and manufacturers build the car to fit into those regulations, and the best car wins. It was never meant to be about race to race BOP - that's just what it has become.

What you're describing is GT3 - that has no real technical regulations and uses the concept of performance boxes - the car has to 'fit' into 'boxes', and when it doesn't, it's BOP'd up or down to adjust so it then fits. BOP is absolutely fine for GT3 (IMO) because that's what the entire class is based around. The fact a customer can buy almost any GT3 car, for around the same price, and know for a fact it'll perform decently well, and if it doesn't then it can be made to. That's great for customer racing. But that isn't great for factory racing.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 07:48 (Ref:3724080)   #27
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IMO, the only BoP without controversy should be a linear scale of weight function of the displacement and turbo boost.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 09:50 (Ref:3724110)   #28
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Torque sensors will cost just as much probably, and they don't limit top end power, just low end torque.
They aren't looking at the peak torque, they're measuring the instantaneous power at all times from the torque reading. Australian Supercars already has a stupid rule that regulates the maximum average power output across the upper part of the RPM range. In a BoP category torque sensors would give you the ability to enforce the exact power output across the entire rev range.

Once again good for making sure nobody cheated up their GT3 engine (the stated aim was letting them run more production engines rather than needing to engineer the things to work with air restrictors just to have a means of controlling performance), terrifying for a class where people are actually trying to improve technology.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 11:05 (Ref:3724130)   #29
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The torque sensors were supposed to outright replace air restrictors, which would basically leave us with the sanctioning body controlling the performance of the engine directly. That fits with the (often forgotten) intent of GT3 to have heavily production based spec cars running together but it's not something the manufacturers were ever going to accept in GTE even with the homologated engines and constant restrictor tweaks to try to neutralize any performance improvements.

Homologation specials tend to be a failing of the homologation requirements. There's no way an ultra limited production hypercar like the Ford GT should be racing 911s and Corvettes to start with but somehow it's supposed to be a great idea because BoP will fix it. (just like it fixed the MC12 to 5 straight FIA GT championships)

That has always been an issue... not just in gtlm. In old good GT1 days there were "not so rare and expensive" dbr9 and c6r in grid with saleen s7 and maserati mc12, that basically were supercars.
Just forget about to find a logic in that.

Anyway, now that vantage shall use amg engines next year, why just don't use a 80/90kg/h fuel flow for GTLM cars too?
no need to tune the engine for restrictors or turbo pressure cut, just need to improve efficiency. The same goal of street cars which GTLM come from.

Anyway, speaking about bop, I've read on the lmp1/2 tech sheet, that there is some kind of bop for lmp2 too, with a possible 20kg ballast. Question is: WEC lmp2 weight is 900kg or 930kg?

Last edited by canaglia; 6 Apr 2017 at 11:11.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 11:07 (Ref:3724131)   #30
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The LMP2 regulations allow for a BOP to be used but the ACO has bluntly said they have no intention of doing so. So as far as things stand for ELMS, WEC and ASLMS, there's no LMP2 BOP.
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