Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Australasian Touring Cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12 Nov 2018, 11:42 (Ref:3862733)   #1
Casper
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Supercar in Five Years Time

I have a question, if the present rules are kept what cars will be racing under those rules in five years time.
Casper is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Nov 2018, 12:03 (Ref:3862734)   #2
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,031
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
I suspect there wont be one car called Holden.
Maybe some other GM brand?
E.B is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Nov 2018, 20:39 (Ref:3862879)   #3
Trevor
Veteran
 
Trevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 1,497
Trevor should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
sad to see what it has evolved into
Trevor is offline  
__________________
I reserve the right to arm bears
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 00:01 (Ref:3862921)   #4
Average Punter
Veteran
 
Average Punter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Australia
a drug store in Wagga
Posts: 1,661
Average Punter should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAverage Punter should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAverage Punter should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Seems inevitable that it will become a NASCAR-esque silhouette series with stickers on the front end to convince us that somehow the innards are different.
Average Punter is offline  
__________________
Punters Beer Fest. Indy 02, Clipsal 03, Winton 04, Paperclip 05, Darwin 06, Oran Park 07, Phillip Island 08, Sandown 09, Townsville 10, Symmons 11, Eastern Creek 12, Winton 13. Townsville 14. Paperclip 15, Sandown 16, Symmons 17, PI 18, The Bend 19
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 01:11 (Ref:3862930)   #5
johnh875
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 2,540
johnh875 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper View Post
I have a question, if the present rules are kept what cars will be racing under those rules in five years time.
I'd say that is a pretty big "if". While the V6 turbos have been dropped for the time being, I wonder if it is realistic to think there will be enough manufacturers interested in supporting V8 powered entries in the future.

Assuming they stay V8, surely Mustang and Camaro are likely, perhaps Stinger? Not sure that other manufacturers would see the benefit from participating, otherwise they have the opportunity to have entered already.

Supercars need to increase the attractiveness of the series - audience size, demographics, cost, etc.
johnh875 is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 01:45 (Ref:3862939)   #6
Casper
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I can't even begin to think what cars under the present rules would be used apart from Mustang and Camaro and I think they have a limited interest span for the Oz audience. Beyond that it is big European sedans and they have about the same level of interest as the two American cars. For certain the rules would be a barrier for the Europeans and overall I don't think they would be interested at any level if they can't use their own drive line.
Casper is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 02:30 (Ref:3862947)   #7
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnh875 View Post
I'd say that is a pretty big "if". While the V6 turbos have been dropped for the time being,
They don't even need to be V6 twin-turbos, fans loved the iconic Sierra Cosworth four cylinders which already produced ample power.

I think a move towards prestige compact sedans that actually come with rear-wheel-drive and that actually come with four cylinder turbo or six cylinder forced induction engine options is most crucial.

The field should be made up of:
- Alfa Romeo Giulia
- Jaguar XE
- Mercedes C-class
- BMW 3 series
- Hyundai Genesis G70
- Lexus IS
- Infiniti Q50

Cars that come from the factory with four doors, rear wheel drive, and which are performance-orientated. A touring car for crying out loud!



The current series seems to have lost the plot in terms of representing the kinds of performance cars that inner-city executives aspire to lease. Once upon a time they could cheer on the E30 M3, the 190E Cosworth and so on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Beyond that it is big European sedans
I think they should be compact sedans that are more nippy and over-powered.

Fans loved the HR31 Skyline, it was lightweight, agile, well-balanced at a meagre 1100kg race weight. Likewise Ford Sierra, likewise BMW M3.
The Infiniti Q50 is the modern day Skyline, and it would be great to see it and its rivals in the field!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 13 Nov 2018 at 02:42.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 02:59 (Ref:3862949)   #8
Casper
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
They don't even need to be V6 twin-turbos, fans loved the iconic Sierra Cosworth four cylinders which already produced ample power.

I think a move towards prestige compact sedans that actually come with rear-wheel-drive and that actually come with four cylinder turbo or six cylinder forced induction engine options is most crucial.

The field should be made up of:
- Alfa Romeo Giulia
- Jaguar XE
- Mercedes C-class
- BMW 3 series
- Hyundai Genesis G70
- Lexus IS
- Infiniti Q50

Cars that come from the factory with four doors, rear wheel drive, and which are performance-orientated. A touring car for crying out loud!



The current series seems to have lost the plot in terms of representing the kinds of performance cars that inner-city executives aspire to lease. Once upon a time they could cheer on the E30 M3, the 190E Cosworth and so on...



I think they should be compact sedans that are more nippy and over-powered.

Fans loved the HR31 Skyline, it was lightweight, agile, well-balanced at a meagre 1100kg race weight. Likewise Ford Sierra, likewise BMW M3.
The Infiniti Q50 is the modern day Skyline, and it would be great to see it and its rivals in the field!
I doubt any of those cars will exist as they are today in five years time with the big shift to BEV or the temporary existence of new hybrids that bridge the gap from ICE to full electric. Polishing my crystal ball furiously I see all those cars as at least hybrid. If they reckon ICE V8's are expensive then hybrids are on another planet altogether.
Casper is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 04:58 (Ref:3862969)   #9
Forda
Veteran
 
Forda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,069
Forda should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Realistically - a reactive, patched-up version of what it currently is.

Optimistically - it becomes a true touring car series, similar to what V8 Fireworks mentioned/proposed above.
Hopefully someone with foresight will assume control, and make it happen.
Forda is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 08:31 (Ref:3862974)   #10
gtcapri
Racer
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Australia
Maitland NSW
Posts: 243
gtcapri should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As much as I didn't like Group A at the time, you can't argue the number of manufacturers involved which made it interesting. Maybe a return to something similar or V* Fireworks mentioned? I would hope what ever it Supercars morphs into that it becomes easier and cheaper for manufacturer involvement, more relevance to the market and easier for even privateers to be involved with.
gtcapri is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 11:14 (Ref:3863007)   #11
billybanana
Veteran
 
billybanana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 654
billybanana should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbillybanana should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Only 4 years ago we had 5 manufacturers represented on the grid and all appeared rosy (on the surface anyway). Where we'll be in 5 years time I struggle to really conceptualise it. I honestly don't know and sadly probably don't care.
billybanana is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 11:45 (Ref:3863010)   #12
Backagain
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 406
Backagain has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote "The current series seems to have lost the plot in terms of representing the kinds of performance cars that inner-city executives aspire to lease. Once upon a time they could cheer on the E30 M3, the 190E Cosworth and so on..."


Geez you make me giggle sometimes, how many aspirational inner city "executives" are interested in motorsports (apart from yourself ?), I guess if we built bicycle paths to the race tracks, served smashed avos and lattes and sold lycra team supporter gear we could be onto something.
Backagain is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 13:27 (Ref:3863029)   #13
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
The problem is, motorsport everywhere is becoming effectively one make racing. Even where they're not, the dreaded parity or balance of performance systems mean manufacturers make variations of the same car. There is nowhere a manufacturer genuinely competes against another using a car which is derived directly from what they put on the road. Which is unfortunate.

V8s have added another layer of problem by effectively limiting the manufacturers, and producing a car which is specific to a small market. It increases the cost and reduces the return. The basic idea of the cars is great - we're all very jealous - but it's now becoming bespoke cars built by specialist teams without needing any manufacturer input and is probably unsustainable in it's current form.
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 13 Nov 2018, 21:32 (Ref:3863171)   #14
Axeman444
Veteran
 
Axeman444's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Australia
Calling a spade a spade...
Posts: 4,117
Axeman444 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAxeman444 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Backagain View Post
how many aspirational inner city "executives" are interested in motorsports (apart from yourself ?)
same as how many gentleman GT drivers there are?
Axeman444 is offline  
__________________
In the words of the Great Forrest Gump: I'm not a smart man, but at least I know where the Dog on the Tuckerbox is
Quote
Old 14 Nov 2018, 22:16 (Ref:3863367)   #15
Mixer
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Surry Hills, NSW
Posts: 6,607
Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
They don't even need to be V6 twin-turbos, fans loved the iconic Sierra Cosworth four cylinders which already produced ample power.
We look back at these things with fondness now but at the time fans hated them, and then the GTR that came after them.

These cars were 100% the reason the V8 rules got put together.
Mixer is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Nov 2018, 23:08 (Ref:3863374)   #16
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
We look back at these things with fondness now but at the time fans hated them, and then the GTR that came after them.
Such so-called "fans" seem a bit thick! Albeit they could and should be mad at Ford Australia for not selling the Sierra Cosworth locally so you could have one in your driveway.

A simple requirement for two wheel drive only and a maximum capacity of 2.0L for turbocharged cars (so Nissan could run the Skyline GTS-T instead of GTR) would have allowed for great battles between Sierra, Skyline, and Commodore to continue indefinitely!

The Commodore could have had it's capacity bumped up to say 5.7L, which surely would be enough to make it competitive against 2.0L turbos? BMW runners could have run a 540i with a capacity bump to 5.7L (maybe a 5.7L version of the V12 engine from the 850i?). Later on, the Ford runners could then have upgraded to a 2WD version of the Escort Cosworth or a Falcon with a 5.7 V8, depending on what they preferred.

Where was the initiative to keep turbocharged cars and keep a good variety of manufacturers in the ATCC!? Since you are moving away from Group A, then why not make rules flexible to accommodate as many manufacturers as possible? Why not have 2.0L turbos racing on equal terms with 5.7L NA cars?


The Toyota Supra runners could have upgraded from the JZA70 to the iconic JZA80 -- a downsized 2.0L version of the 2JZ engine may have been a great base for a touring car! The Jones team may have entered a lovely turbocharged 2.0L rear drive Audi 80 which would have been a truly grand thing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
These cars were 100% the reason the V8 rules got put together.
A terrible set of restrictive rules! Not even permitting a BMW 540i for outright contention let alone anything else not a Commodore or Falcon.

How about:

Option 1: Two-wheel-drive, maximum 2000cc, forced induction, 1100kg minimum, 10" maximum rim width [Sierra, R32 Skyline GTS-T, HR31 Skyline etc]
Option 2: Two-wheel-drive, maximum 5700cc, naturally aspirated, 1250kg minimum, 12" maximum rim width [Commodore, Falcon, 540i etc]
* Rotary engines, 1000cc maximum for option 1, 2850cc maximum for option 2.

For all: Non-standard front splitter and rear wing allowed as per Group 3A

Why was a such simple equivalence too hard for them!? Why on earth make a fleet of Sierras obsolete? Why on earth alienate works BMW, Nissan and Toyota teams? Absolute madness!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 14 Nov 2018 at 23:38.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Nov 2018, 07:34 (Ref:3863405)   #17
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,031
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
We look back at these things with fondness now but at the time fans hated them, and then the GTR that came after them.

These cars were 100% the reason the V8 rules got put together.
Surely back then the local market found the Commodore / Falcon, Holden / Ford in a more dominant market position. Now Holden and Ford are barely in the car market, outsold by Toyota and every other overseas sourced cars.. Ford v Holden now is becoming less relevant with every year that passes.
E.B is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Nov 2018, 08:15 (Ref:3863420)   #18
Mixer
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Surry Hills, NSW
Posts: 6,607
Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
A terrible set of restrictive rules! Not even permitting a BMW 540i for outright contention let alone anything else not a Commodore or Falcon.
And yet these terrible restrictive rules have outlived the life of any other comparable racing class by a 4 or 5 times.
Mixer is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Nov 2018, 08:58 (Ref:3863431)   #19
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
And yet these terrible restrictive rules have outlived the life of any other comparable racing class by a 4 or 5 times.
Hardly consolation for Skyline enthusiasts with obsolete Nissan flags.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Nov 2018, 10:00 (Ref:3863442)   #20
mayhem
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Aruba
On that Island in LOST.
Posts: 3,219
mayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
And yet these terrible restrictive rules have outlived the life of any other comparable racing class by a 4 or 5 times.
That's a good point.
mayhem is offline  
Quote
Old 15 Nov 2018, 19:58 (Ref:3863529)   #21
Trevor
Veteran
 
Trevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 1,497
Trevor should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I have been trying to find a post I posted on here years and years ago, it contained a picture of a young bloke holding a sign saying that "V8Supercars will be gone by 2018). I pretty much nailed it - I just with I could find it
Trevor is offline  
__________________
I reserve the right to arm bears
Quote
Old 18 Nov 2018, 04:31 (Ref:3863895)   #22
bathurst77
Veteran
 
bathurst77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Australia
Biding my time in Vandemonia
Posts: 1,191
bathurst77 has a real shot at the podium!bathurst77 has a real shot at the podium!bathurst77 has a real shot at the podium!bathurst77 has a real shot at the podium!bathurst77 has a real shot at the podium!
There seems to be a good supply of rose tinted glasses in this forum.

the 5 litre v8 formula was brought in as Group A was killing racing.
The crowds were down in a big way, promoters were complaining entries were thin and fans couldnt relate to sierras and gtrs and bmw etc

They had to "load" the rules to make the holden competitive or nobody would go.

the 5litre v8 formula was almost a panic to save touring car racing.
Unfortunately they seemed to have lost "touring cars" in the process.
bathurst77 is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Nov 2018, 07:08 (Ref:3863929)   #23
Mixer
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Surry Hills, NSW
Posts: 6,607
Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by bathurst77 View Post
Unfortunately they seemed to have lost "touring cars" in the process.
Well that was more than 20 years later, and to their credit, nobody has died since...
Mixer is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Nov 2018, 12:15 (Ref:3863967)   #24
FormulaFox
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
United States
Ohio
Posts: 1,864
FormulaFox is heading for a stewards' enquiry!
Where do I see Supercars in five years time...?

In the same place it's in now, with all the same arguments, complaints, etc surrounding it.

But possibly with new engine regulations.
FormulaFox is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Nov 2018, 17:21 (Ref:3864002)   #25
Armco Bender
Llama Assassin and Sheep Botherer
Veteran
 
Armco Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
New Zealand
International Sheep Ambassador
Posts: 4,212
Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!
Toyota Prius wins the Vegetarian Express Bathurst 1000.
Armco Bender is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WSBK Monza - Five Makers In Top Five. Hazza Bike Racing 9 11 May 2006 01:45
Worst driver we've seen on grid in the last five years Menelaos Formula One 69 19 Jun 2005 22:29
Game: Five in, Five Out DNQ Formula One 51 28 May 2003 14:23
Queensland To Host CART For Another Five Years. Dov ChampCar World Series 10 14 Mar 2003 17:49


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.