|
| Site Partners: | SpotterGuides | Veloce Books |
| Related Sites: | Baltic Touring Car Championship | Your Link Here |
|
|
||||||||||
|
|||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||
|
|||||||||||
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 06:39 (Ref:3999734)
|
#1 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,340
  |
The officially unofficial RWD vs FWD Class-based comparison
As expected, we have the ever-lasting RWD vs FWD debate in BTCC with many arguments on both sides of whether RWD has an inherent advantage over FWD.
This thread is not intended to be a repeat of that debate - that can be continued elsewhere. What I began to wonder though was - if we take the assumption that RWD and FWD cars will always be inherently different and there is no realistic way to 'equalise' them to race against each other, how can the presence of both types continue in BTCC with a fair way to compare them in the race for the championship? What came to mind was a form of 'class-based scoring'. Accepting that RWD and FWD cars will compete amongst their own class, but also score points in the overall championship title, then the challenge is faced of there being only 6 RWD cars competing this year. If the points were allocated within class, the last RWD car would still get a '6th place' finish. In an attempt to answer this, I have attempted to score the races to date so far in the following manner: All FWD cars are eligible for points in the FWD class. These are awarded in the same way as currently allocated, with 20 pts for the class winner down to 1 points for the 15th place in class. Bonus points for Qualifying 1st, and for Fastest Lap in class. I haven't included leading a lap at this time. All RWD cars are eligible for points in the RWD class. These have been awarded pro-rate based on the amount of cars competing. This means that the class winner still gets 20 pts, but the pro-rata reduction means that the 4th place RWD car gets 1 pt - with no points for 5th and 6th in class. Again, Qualifying and Fastest Lap points have been awarded within class. So how does that leave the table looking:
As you can see - under this system Turkington is still the cream that rises to the top - but the points are a lot closer behind. The lesser RWD drivers seem to be punished a bit more, but the competition seems a lot closer. What are people's opinions? Would they prefer to see a class-based system adopted in the BTCC? Does this method of scoring seem too skewed? |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." 
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 07:48 (Ref:3999744)
|
#2 | |
|
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,374
|
No we do not need a class based system. We moved away from that to make it easier for viewers to understand. The racing is fine as it is.
|
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost!
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 08:51 (Ref:3999755)
|
#3 | ||
|
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
|
I would not necessarily argue for a two-class-system, but if one was introduced I would like to see a clear performance difference between the two classes: allow RWD cars more powerful engines to make them the clear number 1 category. Perhaps that would entice teams to build more cars based on the big sedans that we'd all like to see.
|
||
|
|
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 09:07 (Ref:3999756)
|
#4 | ||
|
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 11,164
|
I don't think we need a class system. Touring cars has for decades had a mix of FWD and RWD (and AWD) and has been adequately balanced with the small amount of additional weight carried by RWD.
|
||
|
|
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 09:19 (Ref:3999758)
|
#5 | ||
|
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,340
|
Personally - I agree with the opinion that a class system is not required.
One thing that I hope this alternative method of scoring demonstrates is that even when separated into classes - Turkington still comes out at the top of the table. The top drivers in the real championship all appear at the top of this alternative view - but there is a much closer spread. We currently have a >50 pt gap from 1st to 4th. The same spread of points goes down to 7th with this alternative scoring method. As I say - personally I don't think it is necessary at the moment, but I thought it might be an interesting way to view how the current on-track results can be seen in a RWD vs FWD context. |
||
|
|
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 10:29 (Ref:3999772)
|
#6 | |
|
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,374
|
There’s a good quote by Dick Bennetts in this week’s Autosport. Basically he doesn’t think it’s forgone conclusion that it’s a RWD championship and that all it takes is one DNF from Sutton and Turkington and the likes of Butcher and Cammish will be back up there. As he says, it’s a reliability championship, as evidenced by the lack of failures by Sutton and Turkington
|
|
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost!
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 11:00 (Ref:3999775)
|
#7 | |||
|
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,340
|
Quote:
Butcher is 43 points back and Cammish is 57 points behind. It would take three DNF's in a row for Turkington and Sutton, and Cammish to win all three races for him to have a lead that would still only be in single figures. Where I think the championship table is getting skewed at the moment - and what the alternative tries to balance out - is that there are many more FWD cars than RWD cars competing. On the day when everything favours the RWD car, there are only a small number of cars that can take advantage. So as we saw in R3 at Brands, when the sun shines (literally) on the RWD cars, even if Sutton and Turkington were to be beaten by every other RWD car, they'd still be picking up a healthy points total for 5th and 6th place. When the reverse happens, and FWD cars gain the advantage at track due to weather or circuit configuration - there are so many competitive FWD cars that they take points off each other. For Cammish to score well on a day that favours FWD for instance, he has to perform better than Cook, Chilton, Neal, Butcher, Hill, Ingram, Bushell, Morgan, Proctor, Smiley, Jackson...... I feel that the odds are loaded in favour of RWD - but not because they have a distinct advantage over FWD, but that when conditions favour the RWD the field of competitive cars is smaller. The solution to RWD dominance - more RWD cars.... 
|
|||
|
|
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 12:18 (Ref:3999798)
|
#8 | ||
|
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 11,164
|
The thing is, the UK often gets weather that doesn't favour the RWD cars. Traditionally the wet favours FWD, although there are a few circumstances when it favours RWD (a wet to dry track for instance). Basically, if you could choose conditions for a RWD car, you would want it dry and about 30C, which we basically never get in the UK. Anything approaching inclement weather and its advantage FWD.
|
||
|
|
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 16:12 (Ref:3999852)
|
#9 | |
|
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,374
|
That is a problem for RWD cars, if only there was an intermediate tyre like the old days it might help
It just shows that RWD is not without a few disadvantages, let’s not forget it tends to come off worse in contact than FWD and also it takes time for it’s tyres to warm up too |
|
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost!
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 19:17 (Ref:3999900)
|
#10 | ||
|
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,751
|
If we ask Ash and Colin to go round backwards they'll be front wheel drive then. And still faster than Matt Neale I should reckon!
|
||
|
|
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 19:21 (Ref:3999902)
|
#11 | ||
|
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 285
|
I think the real advantage comes at the start of a race. So many times RWD cars make up place's before they have reached the 1st corner.
|
||
|
|
|
|
3 Sep 2020, 21:42 (Ref:3999929)
|
#12 | |
|
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,012
|
Returning to class system would be very wrong. For me, it'd be better to make BTCC all about either FWD or RWD rather than introduce a class system. But this RWD/FWD variety is kind of interesting and I believe the championship is well balanced still.
|
|
|
|
|
|
4 Sep 2020, 16:33 (Ref:4000085)
|
#13 | ||
|
Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 64
|
Quote:
On the FWD / RWD debate then I watch the practice starts etc and at Knockhill people were allowed to watch the race from an area just to the Left of the stand that is in front of the Hairpin. This position provides a very vivid answer to why RWD cars generally make up 3 x the number of places on Lap 1 than FWD cars and its because they have a massively better launch, the BMW in particular has an impressive "squat and go" that reminds me of the Porsche Carrera Cup cars I am familiar with, So what happens is that the RWD cars launch and gain track position quickly, as they cannot warm up the fronts the FWD cars latch on quickly, this is easily noticed if you watch R1 & R2 at Knockhill. R1 was classic as Hill in a zero ballast car was 50 metres behind at Turn 1 for Duffers but was on the boot of Colin at the Hairpin, so Track position is hugely important in the BTCC. For Ash & Colin then the key is to defend hard the first couple of laps until the fronts come in and then they can show the pace they have without the need to overtake to gain position. I think the RWD cars are a little faster for sure at this stage of the season but its not massive If you take R2 at Knockhill once our car was released after the Hill/Butcher incident then we quickly caught the Toyota but Ingram is a seasoned driver very good in defence and our very fast car at that moment was caught unable to progress,had it have done so there is no doubt it would have been a 3 way lead battle so once again Track position you see, as a RWD car would have been past Ingram probably off the start and could then display its performance. The season may close up with some dry/wet races as the achilles heel of the RWD is to run a dry set up with wet tyres, on full wet or dry they are very fast, but its not all done and dusted yet I dont think... Thruxton will be key to many peoples season. Enjoy the season and please go kind.... |
||
|
|
|
|
4 Sep 2020, 16:52 (Ref:4000089)
|
#14 | ||
|
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,751
|
As I see it different cars are better than others at places on tracks. Be true with any motorsport unless everyone is in identical motors.
I am totally tuned out from the RWD is better than FWD blah blah. Colin and Ash are to my mind the two most talented drivers on the grid now. Put either in the Dynamics Honda they'd be at the sharp end. Ditto the Motorbase Focus. A Honda, BMW, Infiniti or Ford Focus could be the championship winning drivers motor this year. Whichever it is, the margin over second place will be small and likely the championship will go down to tge last race. |
||
|
|
|
|
4 Sep 2020, 16:55 (Ref:4000090)
|
#15 | |
|
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,374
|
Nice to have you posting on here again and it’s good to hear you aren’t making excuses as to why the RWD cars are winning, just knowing circumstances sometimes favour them. As you say, let’s enjoy the season and roll on Thruxton
|
|
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost!
|
|
20 Sep 2020, 17:54 (Ref:4005122)
|
#16 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,340
|
In the unofficial RWD/FWD class-based comparison - the top two are separated by just 2 points, with the top five separated by just 26 points.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
|
|
21 Sep 2020, 08:24 (Ref:4005279)
|
#17 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,340
|
Amended results following DQ:
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
|
|
28 Sep 2020, 06:14 (Ref:4007067)
|
#18 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,340
|
Standings after Silverstone:
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
|
|
12 Oct 2020, 06:19 (Ref:4010060)
|
#19 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,340
|
Update after Croft
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
|
|
12 Oct 2020, 07:05 (Ref:4010066)
|
#20 | |
|
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 481
|
I don't really see the point in trying to separate them out within a series that already has compensating measures. If those measures weren't there then the table would be totally different.
|
|
|
|
|
|
12 Oct 2020, 08:39 (Ref:4010082)
|
#21 | ||
|
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 851
|
Imagine how tedious the discussions would have been if this forum was around in 1996.
|
||
|
|
__________________
There are no such things as races which are too long, only people whose attention spans are too short.
|
|
12 Oct 2020, 08:52 (Ref:4010086)
|
#22 | |||
|
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,340
|
Quote:
The tables here are intended to demonstrate whether - if you separate RWD and FWD for championship scoring purposes, does the table change drastically? If it does, it might suggest that the use of a certain drive-train does give a distinct advantage, whereas if there is little difference, then it is harder to argue that one type has an unfair advantage. When the table was started, Turkington appeared at the top in either way of calculating, which seems to indicate that he was the class of the field regardless of car he was in. Currently, this table has a slight difference to the official results, but not drastically so. The top three RWD drivers all lose one place in this method of scoring, with the main difference being that Chilton replaces Oliphant as the driver in 6th with a realistic chance of catching the leaders, and Butcher is in greater contention. Do I genuinely think this system should be adopted? - no. Does it show that RWD has an advantage over FWD? - possibly. But the level of similarity between this table and the official results show, IMO, that the championship contenders are competing on a reasonably level playing field and the RWD/FWD debate is overplayed. |
|||
|
|
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
|
|
12 Oct 2020, 09:57 (Ref:4010099)
|
#23 | |
|
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,374
|
I don't see the point of comparison either. This whole FWD/RWD debate was started by people who felt it was unfair certain drivers in RWD winning or certain drivers in FWD not winning
The great thing about the BTCC is that it has a great variety of cars that can all compete equally if everything is right. I really think the way the cars are built and set up have more to do with a drivetrain. I'm sure some cars have struggled with RWD. Let's face it Turkington was top because he did a great job, although we'll have to see what the likes of Cammish and Tingram can do now they are caught up. I prefer to just enjoy the series rather than worry what drivetrain people are using. After all does it really matter? I can understand slight tweaks in the regs to balance out, but now all the time and it must be done with good reason. After all we're setting up for a nice title fight between two RWD and two FWD cars atm. Some drivers like Chilton and Oliphant have shown they can mix it with the big boys when all is going well. It's all stewing up nicely, let's see what the likes of Butcher and Cammish and Tingram and Sutton can do at Snetterton, another circuit that can produce close racing. I'm just glad we won't be adopting any class system between front and rear wheel drive. Going back to a class system would not work in the current BTCC with things being close. As I said some cars will be better than others and if it's RWD, that's more coincidence IMHO. It's fairly well balanced between the two drivetrains give a take an odd performance advantage in each one. I am looking forward to seeing a 4 way, possibly 5 way title fight come Brands. That's more important than this FWD/RWD nonsense |
|
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost!
|
|
26 Oct 2020, 09:56 (Ref:4013133)
|
#24 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,340
|
Update after Snetterton
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
|
|
26 Oct 2020, 12:24 (Ref:4013177)
|
#25 | |
|
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,374
|
Looks like the RWD cars got a lucky break, but that’s racing. We don’t need to separate classes. Just need the others to catch up. For me Tingram, Cammish and Butcher have been great this season, but just weren’t as lucky as Turkington and Sutton. Lot of if onlys
|
|
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost!
|
 |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Why are ERC 1600cc and 2000cc cars separated by FWD and RWD? | Greg Cozier | Rallying & Rallycross | 8 | 16 May 2013 16:55 |
| Best way to equalise RWD and FWD starts | PorscheFanNo1 | Touring Car Racing | 10 | 16 Jul 2007 07:09 |
| RWD stock hatch class for BMW's? | rallycrosscraig | Rallying & Rallycross | 5 | 8 Mar 2007 19:20 |
| class A or class B | vauxhall | Touring Car Racing | 5 | 5 Jan 2001 12:32 |
| Question about FWD, RWD, 4WD and their impact on cornering. | Sharky | Road Car Forum | 4 | 11 Sep 2000 20:11 |
Linear Mode
