Prospective new teams for the FIA F1 World Championship.

[E.B]

I must admit that although Andretti might see it as serious, but to me they have come across as more huff and puff and 'gunner' than substance. I also think Andretti referring to F1 being greedy is not the angle of attack to take.

I read the teams and the FIA / FOM are having a pow-wow in the next week to discuss new teams and in particular the S200 million pot, with even Andretti fans / supporters like Zak Brown stating the 200 mill was way too low as a 'franchise' fee (for want of a better term)

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

that said, the disconnect for me remains...why hasn't their financing plan already taken into account this 200m payment? why are they complaining so much about it? why are they calling out the other teams about it?

200m is a lot but in F1 terms its really not and if they dont have it then maybe the Andretti is not as good of a bid as Haas or those others thats crashed and cashed out were? unfortunately we dont have the numbers and can only offer supposition based on what the motorsports media puts out there for us to comment on. for me thats stories about Andretti inferring they dont have enough money to play the game with.

I thought that Andretti was fine with the $200mill, but maybe not so fine with some teams indicating that the figure was too low given the current value of the series etc.

Originally Posted by E.B

I must admit that although Andretti might see it as serious, but to me they have come across as more huff and puff and 'gunner' than substance. I also think Andretti referring to F1 being greedy is not the angle of attack to take.

I read the teams and the FIA / FOM are having a pow-wow in the next week to discuss new teams and in particular the S200 million pot, with even Andretti fans / supporters like Zak Brown stating the 200 mill was way too low as a 'franchise' fee (for want of a better term)

I don't doubt that Andretti is serious but to me (a naturally quiet, reserved person) the Andretti approach has indeed been a heap of huff & puff giving the "gunner" feel and the comment about teams being greedy was just stupid.

IF the Andretti bid stacks up and IF it gets a green light, it'll at least be fascinating to see how the team makes the logistics work, with a team run from the US, we haven't seen that attempted for quite some time (not counting USF1).

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

that said, the disconnect for me remains...why hasn't their financing plan already taken into account this 200m payment? why are they complaining so much about it? why are they calling out the other teams about it?

As mentioned, Andretti has funding for the $200 million buy in. I also believe he is going ahead with new facilities construction. He also is bringing a big name sponsor. He is meeting the requirements. The other teams are the ones complaining not him.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

The other teams are the ones complaining not him.

Richard

Hi Richard, sorry but Andretti has done a lot of complaining effectively. More or less saying "we're a big name, they should let us in, what's wrong with them?" in a variety of ways, going so far as to call the other teams greedy. Now, he may be accurate but he's definitely been complaining.

The other teams have responded of course and it's all been a bit ordinary and far too much **** and wind for my personal taste - all a bit sad & pathetic to be honest.

There's a process, the applications open soon and at that point, those serious have an opportunity to put their case forward to the actual decisions makers.

[Teretonga]

I'm a little different in my thoughts about new teams.
I would tend much more towards the attitude that new teams should be allowed to play.
That doesn't mean they reap immediate rewards, but what is the dilution fee really for?
if we assumed the total payout to teams is about $600 million, then the average amount is $60 mil per team.
Andretti has already said he would be prepared to go the first two years without any rewards, only during the third year would he want to participate in the rewards program.
Even if he did get rewards straight away then 10 team average of $60, extrapolated to 11 teams is $660 million. At that average Andretti is fine for the first three years with the dilution fee at $200 mill and still has 20 million to contribute to the overall fund in the fourth year.
Or if we looked at the range of rewards and awarded the 11th team the same amount as the 10th team.
A range from $90 million to $30 mill for tenth. Then give the 11th team the same as the 10th team and the $200 mill dilution fee lasts for 6 years with still $20 mill left over.
Or if the tenth-place prize is $40 million then then Andretti's dilution fund carries the 11th place getter for 5 years.
If Andretti is hopeless and always last no one loses anything at all.
All that happens is he gets his 200 million back over five years.
But if he finishes tenth the eleven-place getter is rewarded just as much as if he got tenth.
If Andretti finishes higher and beats more established teams the realize that F1 is a competition, a meritocracy, one that rewards effort and success, and that if Andretti is able to COMPETE successfully against established teams he should be rewarded and the effort he is able to make against the established teams means he is a deserving winner of those rewards.
He is simply competing by the same rules as everyone else and any athlete that competes does so to win the prize, and there is no real basis for determining why he should NOT be allowed to compete.

If under the present dilution amount, assuming it provides five years of support, then any team that cannot beat the newcomer after five years has failed miserably.
Secondly, if the commercial rights holder is unable to create a greater churn and a greater reward package within five years for the teams then they have failed miserably and the questions should be landing at their feet as to what they have been doing for the last five years.
Thirdly the rules belong to the regulator not the commercial rights holder, and the regulatory body should not have to be manipulated by the commercial rights holder or the teams.
If MBS wants to open the doors to Andretti and the representative international body agrees then the ball is in their court, not the commercial rights holder nor the teams.
There is a lot more here but there are also blankets of vested interest obscuring the some real issues at play here and it is time something broke free.

[P38 in workshop]

^^^


An excellent post!

[S griffin]

I do think the teams have been a bit snobbish towards Andretti. I admire Mike for not giving in, although he could be a bit more discreet in his comments, as his comments aren’t making it any easier. Hopefully though the FIA will decide what’s best, despite what the teams think

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Hi Richard, sorry but Andretti has done a lot of complaining effectively. More or less saying "we're a big name, they should let us in, what's wrong with them?" in a variety of ways, going so far as to call the other teams greedy. Now, he may be accurate but he's definitely been complaining.

I was trying to focus on the $200M topic. Andretti is not complaining about the dilution fee. But yes, he is giving it back just as much as he is getting it from the other teams. The alternative is to be silent and let the whisper campaign go unchecked. F1 politics are real, so you have to play the game even if it's public and messy.

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

F1 politics are real, so you have to play the game even if it's public and messy.

Toyota just did what they were told and did not partake in the politics IIRC.

They could have kicked up a stink about their V12 engines being banned, but unless I am mistaken, they did not and respectfully accepted the FIA's decision despite needing to delay their entry by an entire season?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I admire Mike for not giving in, although he could be a bit more discreet in his comments, as his comments aren’t making it any easier.

I think this is a good point as well. I do think he needs to push back. But part of the game is doing that in the most productive way. I don't want to pretend that I know how to do that inside the F1 ecosystem.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I do think the teams have been a bit snobbish towards Andretti. I admire Mike for not giving in, although he could be a bit more discreet in his comments, as his comments aren’t making it any easier. Hopefully though the FIA will decide what’s best, despite what the teams think

agreed.

re reading my earlier posts and i can see that i got too caught up in the debate/proving myself to be right.

should be more appreciative on how difficult it can be trying to break into such an exclusive and elitist club and as Tourer said, it will be fascinating to watch this process play out.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Yes, things have changed a lot since you could stick a DFV into a used chassis in your garden shed, go racing and be competitive. Not all changes for the better.

Slight aside: the Tyrrell Shed is, I think, to be relocated to Goodwood. It's an important part of motorsport history and I'm glad someone's taking care of it.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Greem

Slight aside: the Tyrrell Shed is, I think, to be relocated to Goodwood. It's an important part of motorsport history and I'm glad someone's taking care of it.

Would have been better if it stayed where it was, but at least it's not being knocked down completely.

[peebee2]

Back to new teams, how about Mazepin applying through Hitech?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Back to new teams, how about Mazepin applying through Hitech?

For what purpose? I tend to think that the only reason to do this would be to give Niki an F1 seat. He is currently racing in the Asian Le Mans Series (and being his usually self there as well), but that series is not FIA managed. So it is not impacted by the FIA rules on driving racing under Russian and Belarusian flags. I have no idea what flag he is using now, but I just have a hard time imagining someone who is so close to Putin going down the path of not racing under the Russian flag as it may appear as if an insider is "capitulating to the west". Mazepin doesn't want to accidently fall out a window of a tall building. But what do I know. Maybe its a non-issue.

As to a team, I guess the two paths are a fully new team (which I suspect a reason would be found to prevent him from joining) or buying an existing team such as AT. I wonder if that might be blocked as well?

https://the-race.com/formula-1/who-w...bull-sells-it/

In short, I see political challenges to Niki not driving under the Russian flag (maybe it's not an issue for him?) and I just don't see the established F1 "old boys club" making it easy for Mazepin Sr to buy in. They are making it hard for Andretti. Do we think they will prefer Mazepin over Andretti? Maybe if Mazepin does a side deal with teams to provide them with "additional funds to offset the financial loss of the under valued dilution fee" on the side to help grease the skids. But that would be rightly seen as a pay off or bribe, so I can't see that flying.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

F1 teams are looking to triple the $200m anti-dilution fee Andretti will need to pay.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ri...600m/10436870/

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

For what purpose?

Simply, it would be because he wants to. Don't forget he tried to buy Racing Point and was very serious about it. Before that there was Skorpion F1.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Simply, it would be because he wants to. Don't forget he tried to buy Racing Point and was very serious about it. Before that there was Skorpion F1.

I get that. Maybe something was lost in my post. All of your examples are prior to the advent of the Russo-Ukrainian War.

My point in my post was that I believe the main (only?) reason Mazepin senior is involved in racing is to provide a seat for his son. And given the sanctions on Mazepin due to the war makes it hard for him or his son to be involved. Not impossible, but hard (see my points earlier).

Yes, you can find a ride for Niki in a lesser series where a team is just willing to take the sponsorship money, but is F1 willing to get in bed with him right now? If this was pre-war or post-war (assuming sanctions removed), then yes, I believe it would be a real possibility. I mean, "never say never", but I would be shocked if it was to happen in the near future. Not that he might not try.

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

F1 teams are looking to triple the $200m anti-dilution fee Andretti will need to pay.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ri...600m/10436870/

Basing the dilution fee on what Audi may have paid for Sauber is a ridiculous way to measure the value of the dilution fee.
In my earlier post (180) I applied to the fund the way it should be applied to achieve its real purpose.
The dilution fund is there to compensate other teams for real loss by the addition of a third team. But if the sport contracts and Liberty fails to enlarge the pot that should not fall at Andretti's feet.
In the same way, if Andretti, or any other newcomer, is able to compete more successfully than any existing team he should not be paying the failing team compensation.
This is why most of the arguments about the size of the dilution fee are a nonsense.

The increase in the value of the teams is more than any other single factor, a result of the limitations of the cost cap, something many of the leading teams fought against the regulator about for years.
For those teams to now argue with the regulator about the size of the dilution cap is just F1 politics and without any real merit at all.
If the dilution fee is applied the way I suggested, and the new teams fail, then the existing teams lose nothing.
And if the new teams beat them, then the new order is based on merit, nothing else.
F1 is a competition.
It is time for the existing teams to shut up and put their focus on their primary reason for participation in the competition.

[GTRMagic]

Logical possibility.. Scuderia Alpha Tauri transmogrifies into Team Andretti
Italian Minardi base
No 2026 engine supply deal
Underperforming to its sister team
A history of winning Grand Prix
Seemingly motivated bean counter seller
Cheaper to buy than the $200m pie share

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Basing the dilution fee on what Audi may have paid for Sauber is a ridiculous way to measure the value of the dilution fee.
In my earlier post (180) I applied to the fund the way it should be applied to achieve its real purpose.
The dilution fund is there to compensate other teams for real loss by the addition of a third team. But if the sport contracts and Liberty fails to enlarge the pot that should not fall at Andretti's feet.
In the same way, if Andretti, or any other newcomer, is able to compete more successfully than any existing team he should not be paying the failing team compensation.
This is why most of the arguments about the size of the dilution fee are a nonsense.

The increase in the value of the teams is more than any other single factor, a result of the limitations of the cost cap, something many of the leading teams fought against the regulator about for years.
For those teams to now argue with the regulator about the size of the dilution cap is just F1 politics and without any real merit at all.
If the dilution fee is applied the way I suggested, and the new teams fail, then the existing teams lose nothing.
And if the new teams beat them, then the new order is based on merit, nothing else.
F1 is a competition.
It is time for the existing teams to shut up and put their focus on their primary reason for participation in the competition.

Superbly put.

I think i'll go as far as saying that if this dilution fee increase aggravation from certain existing entrants continues, it will also risk an increase in negative PR which in turn could have a negative impact on their team's (and the series') value.

[veeten]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Logical possibility.. Scuderia Alpha Tauri transmogrifies into Team Andretti
Italian Minardi base
No 2026 engine supply deal
Underperforming to its sister team
A history of winning Grand Prix
Seemingly motivated bean counter seller
Cheaper to buy than the $200m pie share

Have to fend off two other offers to buy, but what a story...
A famous Italian-American racing family decides to "come home" and establish a new F1 team, from the ashes of old to the possibilities of the new.

Hollywood couldn't write a story like that...

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Logical possibility.. Scuderia Alpha Tauri transmogrifies into Team Andretti
Italian Minardi base
No 2026 engine supply deal
Underperforming to its sister team
A history of winning Grand Prix
Seemingly motivated bean counter seller
Cheaper to buy than the $200m pie share

Aren't they "Ford" motors in 2026?

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by veeten

Have to fend off two other offers to buy, but what a story...
A famous Italian-American racing family decides to "come home" and establish a new F1 team, from the ashes of old to the possibilities of the new.

Hollywood couldn't write a story like that...

At this point in time the battle is against a cartel that have decided they have a perpetual right to veto any possible new competitors.More The Godfather than a feel good story.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Alan52

At this point in time the battle is against a cartel that have decided they have a perpetual right to veto any possible new competitors.More The Godfather than a feel good story.

Who'd have thought that letting the teams be in charge of things could've ended badly. I, for one, am shocked. Shocked!