[Rules] The FIA - what's occurring there?

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Of course, Max Mosley got accused of much the same when he skirted a no confidence vote of his shenanigans in '08 when he did similar things for Eastern European and maybe Middle Eastern auto clubs.

Yes but that was more about 'personal' stuff than about how he ran the FIA.

[chernaudi]

It's still something that can be argued to be bringing the FIA and F1 into disrepute. And according to the FIA's own rules and protocols, even the FIA President isn't above the law of the land here. Be it personal matters that aren't a good look, or how he's running the sanctioning body.


And it does seem that some of these sackings and demotions are due to MBS' feelings being hurt when he gets questioned, and possibly an element of trying to surround himself with yes men (we know how well that worked for NASCAR with Brian France) and surround himself with allies that anyone who wants to seriously challenge him for FIA President next election would also have to go though.



FIA (and for sure MBS) should maybe be glad that the EU isn't involved in this--yet. Considering that the US DOJ is suing Liberty Media (who own FOM, and have no other ties to the FIA--and as of yet Liberty are getting sued over matters not directly related to FOM), all I can say is that it's not a good look when you have governments looking into your goings on.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

FIA (and for sure MBS) should maybe be glad that the EU isn't involved in this--yet. Considering that the US DOJ is suing Liberty Media (who own FOM, and have no other ties to the FIA--and as of yet Liberty are getting sued over matters not directly related to FOM), all I can say is that it's not a good look when you have governments looking into your goings on.

I thought the DOJ was conducting an anti-trust investigation of Liberty Media, not suing them.

[chernaudi]

The DOJ's action against Liberty/Live Nation is classified as a civil anti-trust lawsuit. The DOJ and the FTC also had a similar lawsuit filed against Google last year that the FTC and the DOJ won. The 23XI and Front Row Motorsport vs NASCAR is also a civil anti-trust lawsuit.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The DOJ's action against Liberty/Live Nation is classified as a civil anti-trust lawsuit. The DOJ and the FTC also had a similar lawsuit filed against Google last year that the FTC and the DOJ won. The 23XI and Front Row Motorsport vs NASCAR is also a civil anti-trust lawsuit.

An anti-trust investigation is not the same as an anti-trust law suit. Every article I've read about this, says this is an investigation, e.g: https://racer.com/2024/08/09/liberty...on-by-u-s-doj/

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Is it impossible that F1 pulls away from the FIA?

Which would be interesting. In theory it could be possible that "non-licensed" F1 drivers could be banned from taking part inFIA sanctioned events like Le Mans, and even have to take a test and re-qualify for their International licences by racing in local clubbies

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

Remember 2009
https://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=109

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It's still something that can be argued to be bringing the FIA and F1 into disrepute.

No real comment on your post. Just wanted to say.. Welcome back to the F1 forum!

Richard

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

An anti-trust investigation is not the same as an anti-trust law suit. Every article I've read about this, says this is an investigation, e.g: https://racer.com/2024/08/09/liberty...on-by-u-s-doj/

That's the action over Andretti's rejection by FOM. The thing that the DOJ have successfully initiated with Liberty over Live Nation is a lawsuit--which, I believe, started out as a FTC/DOJ investigation. And both revolve around the same thing--anti-competitive monopolistic practices.


Also it should be noted that Liberty Media itself and FOM under their control are publicly traded companies. When Bernie Eccostone owned FOM I believe that it was a UK limited company (and one branch of it was registered as a Dutch BV/BVBA company). A UK limited or a Dutch BV/BVBA is equal essentially to a privately held LLC in the US. At issue here is that publicly traded companies have to have certain financial assets and documents accessible to the public (potential stakeholders), let alone the government.



That's why on the NASCAR front with the 23XI/FRM anti-trust suit either NASCAR thinks they can slam dunk this or if not, will try to settle (albeit under terms favorable to them), as NASCAR was a privately held incorporated company prior to 2019, and was reorganized into a private LLC that year. NASCAR can keep their books more closed, except in case of court or gov't intervention.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It appears that some people raised concerns with MBS attempted bribery of the clubs who would be voting in the FIA Presidency election. Those people are no longer employed by the FIA.

The following is culled from Joe Saward's latest piece after the Las Vegas race (my bold):

Originally Posted by Joe Saward

Having said that, I hear that there is now a proposal for the President and Deputy-Presidents to be paid salaries. While I think it is a good idea in principle, because the role will never attract the best candidates if one can only get the role if one can afford not to be paid. The problem is that getting a salary is actually against the law. The FIA is governed by the so-called Association Loi of 1901 which exists for non-profit entities in France, allowing them certain freedoms with regard to taxation and administrative processes, on the basis that the leadership is not paid and claims only bona fide expenses. If the rules are broken there is the possibility of substantial tax demands from the French government.

This is a problem that Max Mosley ran into years ago when he tried to move the FIA to Switzerland and subsequently received a tax demand from the French government that caused his eyes to water and his plans to be changed. Today the FIA remains under French law because it does not want to settle a tax bill and leave. However, there is a Swiss version of the federation as well. The two FIAs have consolidated accounts, but they are run under different sets of laws. This is a little odd but has worked fine until the President tried to claim expenses for his own private jet from the French FIA. He does not need the money (he comes from a mega-wealthy family) but he wanted to use the money to establish a fund that would be distributed to small FIA clubs around the world which struggle to pay their bills. The little clubs are, naturally, very keen on this idea, but it was pointed out that this scheme might be misinterpreted when there was an election in the offing, as some might suggest that this was a way to buy votes. I am told that the audit committee questioned the idea and since then several of them, including the president Bertrand Badre and Britain’s Tom Purves, are no longer involved. This may also be why there have been changes on the ethics committee as well, and the reason that the compliance officer has just departed. We don’t know for sure because people are not talking but there is likely to be plenty of chatter in the next 12 months. The thing is that so many FIA people have left during Ben Sulayem’s presidency that they could all get together and organise conferences to discuss their stories. The latest to go, I am told, are two stewards: Tim Mayer of the US and Singapore’s Janette Tan. They follow the recently despatched F1 Race Director Niels Wittich and a lot of others, some of which have been reported upon and others who have not.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

That's the action over Andretti's rejection by FOM. The thing that the DOJ have successfully initiated with Liberty over Live Nation is a lawsuit--which, I believe, started out as a FTC/DOJ investigation. And both revolve around the same thing--anti-competitive monopolistic practices.

The article mentions Andretti's application to join F1 being blocked by Liberty Media, in paragraph 7. However, the article is primarily about the DOJ's anti-trust investigation of Liberty Media, hence the headline.

[chernaudi]

And the court case (United States, et al v. Live Nation Entertainment and Ticketmaster) is a civil lawsuit filed by the DOJ and 29 US states and Washington DC. And it too came after a DOJ and FTC investigation. Why the DOJ feel they have to resort to the civil court system when anti-trust stuff can be considered a crime, I don't know. Maybe burden of proof (criminal law--proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise presumed innocent. Civil law--more likely than not guilty or innocent).


And most anti-trust issues end up in civil court vs criminal court, even if the anti-trust stuff is or at least boarders on being a crime under US Federal Law and often State Laws. The EU even looked into FOM for possible criminal and/or civil proceedings over Andretti's issues, but so far haven't taken any serious action.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The following is culled from Joe Saward's latest piece after the Las Vegas race (my bold):

Great pull from the article, thanks.

Even if what MBS was proposing was correct, it appears his default stance is sack anyone who does not agree with his ideas.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And the court case (United States, et al v. Live Nation Entertainment and Ticketmaster) is a civil lawsuit filed by the DOJ and 29 US states and Washington DC. And it too came after a DOJ and FTC investigation. Why the DOJ feel they have to resort to the civil court system when anti-trust stuff can be considered a crime, I don't know. Maybe burden of proof (criminal law--proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise presumed innocent. Civil law--more likely than not guilty or innocent).


And most anti-trust issues end up in civil court vs criminal court, even if the anti-trust stuff is or at least boarders on being a crime under US Federal Law and often State Laws. The EU even looked into FOM for possible criminal and/or civil proceedings over Andretti's issues, but so far haven't taken any serious action.

Until the DOJ have filed legal action against Liberty Media, for violating anti-trust laws, this remains an investigation.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Maybe burden of proof (criminal law--proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise presumed innocent. Civil law--more likely than not guilty or innocent).

I suspect this the reason. Easier path to a desired outcome.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Until the DOJ have filed legal action against Liberty Media, for violating anti-trust laws, this remains an investigation.

I expect that filing legal action is the last resort. That a settlement (with some type of concession) is/was the goal. Opening the door for GM may have been the desired concession.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/b...ness/10678286/

MBS appears to be unaware that his position is an elected one, and to retain it he will likely need votes. Tells F1 drivers that how he runs the show is "none of their business".

[chillibowl]

Lots of quotes in there, none particularly flattering. Sounds like a man losing the plot imo.

[chernaudi]

Maybe a vote of no confidence from the General Assembly, Senate and WMSC and being forced into a recall election might wake him up.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/b...ness/10678286/

MBS appears to be unaware that his position is an elected one, and to retain it he will likely need votes. Tells F1 drivers that how he runs the show is "none of their business".

Question is... those who vote, what do they think? My understanding is that FOM, teams, drivers and fans are just along for the ride.

Richard

[chernaudi]

I believe that it's down the the General Assembly, FIA Senate, and the WMSC. And the major factions in all the above had no problem trying to get rid of Mosley in '08. MBS is guilty "only" of autocratic behavior and probable corruption, but still worthy of them taking a look at it.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I believe that it's down the the General Assembly, FIA Senate, and the WMSC. And the major factions in all the above had no problem trying to get rid of Mosley in '08. MBS is guilty "only" of autocratic behavior and probable corruption, but still worthy of them taking a look at it.

From a "who can vote" perspective, I don't think the Senate or WMSC are involved. I think it is just two votes per each member country. Two because they have a "sporting" and "mobility" representative. I think that is 147 countries for a total of 294 potential votes (number might be slightly less for esoteric reasons). If I have this wrong, someone correctly me. I am just trying to decode some of the stuff posted on the FIA site.

My point is... While we as (mostly) Euro or NA centric fans, FOM, F1 teams, F1 drivers. None of us have a say in the FIA election other than trying to influence the votes for our respective countries representatives. And that MBS "might" still be doing favorable things when you look at his constituency as a whole. Such as the article linked above, he calls out the amount of money for "grassroots" motorsports. Of which people have already called out might be viewed as buying votes by allocating FIA money to member countries. F1 might be popular, but some some who will never see an F1 race in their country, MBS might be "sticking it to the man" and they might be loving it, or not. Who knows? I wish some of the racing media would dig into this topic.

And the two votes per country is much like issues with US presidential election rules in that it's not really fully based upon equal representation by population because countries like Andorra (population of 86K), Barbados (268K), India (1.4B), USA (335M) or UK (68M) all have the same voting power.

Playing to a likely ignored majority of small member countries is a fine strategy and it may yet work again for him. No matter how incompetent he is at his actual job.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1...s/cy89xevxp1jo

FIA seeks rule changes after president allegations

[chillibowl]

Politics of the worst kind…seems to be going around these days!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1...s/cy89xevxp1jo

FIA seeks rule changes after president allegations

Wow! That is absolutely nuts. Recipe for abuse and corruption.

Richard

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Ben Sulayem

Do we tell them how to drive? Do we tell them what to have as their strategy? It’s none of their business. Sorry… I am a driver. I respect the drivers. Let them go and concentrate on what they do best, which is race.

Also:

Originally Posted by Ben Sulayem

We're not rappers, you know. They say the F-word how many times per minute? We are not on that.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Wow! That is absolutely nuts. Recipe for abuse and corruption.

Richard

On paper it sounds like MBS wants to be Judge, jury and governor of his own questionable behaviour.... in effect putting himself in a dictatorial position.

Do as I say not as I do springs to mind.

Maybe my suspicious mind is reading more into what is being suggested than I fear.

We can only hope it never gets beyond the proposal stage.