hans device in club racing

[ss_collins]

I don't have enough movement as it is - I was considering switching to open face/goggles as it would suit the cars look much better but I was put off that idea when I followed another car and got peppered by gravel after he went off.

No let drivers choose and don't introduce hans and if they do I'll quit and take up 'bikes (who have a far better outlook on safety stuff sometimes).

I was asked the other day about the dangers of the sport and how I feel about them - I'm not bothered I'm happy to get into the car and at the end of the day I know theres no guarantee of getting out. I still chose to get in - and I know the risks you won't ever be able to make this sport safe, and I think the point we are at now is fine.

[graeme]

Its difficult to see how something that only one or two (?)club drivers actually use at the moment could be made compulsary.

[Tim Falce]

Originally posted by 1200Datto27
Falcemob,

This is not an attack on you, so please do not take it as one.............

I'm not taking it as an attack on me. I don't want to spend £600+ on a load of hardware plonked on my shoulders. I wear a neck brace which works very well thanks.
If you want safety above everything why not make all drivers sit in a carbon fibre safety cell filled with expanded polystyrene to stop injury or better still ban motorsport altogether.
We have already been conned with the transponders which although not for safety was meant for our own good but just gave a bit more money to the timing companies. Motorsport is dangerous, we all know that so lets keep things in perspective.

[MGDavid]

>>>Ask a number of Champcar/Indycar/F1 drivers who have had major shunts the problem that the HANS device has solved!!
===unfortunately I don't know any and they don't come on here, so how about you being helpful and answering the question directly ? Thanks...

[Snapper Baz]

During Saturday at Silverstone somebody was walking around the paddock giving out leaflets which I think was offering a special price on the HANS Device-I gave it to the driver whose awning I kipped in without paying to much attention to it-did it say £400 ish?

[ss_collins]

I note with interest the vote is split 50/50

[AndyV]

I am not opposed to the Hans device, but the cost equates to 3/4 race entries depending on quotes.

Different categories would need to be considered too. The chances of me being in an indycar/nascar/f1 type 200mph shunt are somewhat slim in a 1300cc classic, its all a matter of the risk you are prepared to take. Personnally I am willing take on the responsiblilty for my own safety and carry on racing without a hans. If dictated to use a Hans then I would have to get one as I love racing, but there will have to be a subsequent reduction in the races I enter, another reduction to dwindling grid sizes.

I hear all the arguments that safety should be paramount, but given the choice of 4 races with a hans and 8 races without, then my choice is the more races with a bit more risk.

Andy

[Adam43]

As the question seems to be should they be compulsory I voted no.

However, I think, it would be good if it was allowed to become more common place for those you want it. I agree with most comments along these lines.

[Woolley]

Do I think they should be compulsory? No. Not until a lot more development work is done.

Do I think everyone should seriously consider using them? Yes. I agree that there is an excessive drive over some aspects of safety, but you wouldn't consider racing without extinguishers, helmets, fire retardent clothing or other protective equipment so that an otherwise minor mistake doesn't escalate into something far more serious.

As for doesn't suit your style/can't make them comfortable/not convinced by their contribution to safety, I think the last person I heard make those comments was Dale Earnhardt, RIP. His son could tell you a few things about failing to wear appropriate safety equipment, too.

[greenbean]

i did not set this poll up because i think that that motor racing is to dangerous far from it .if you look at other sports motor racing is fairly safer . but i fell that any device that allows a driver to survive an accident that mite have other wise killed him should be brought in.i no that they are not cheap but surely that is not a reason to not use such a product

[johnw]

Originally posted by ss_collins
.....I was considering switching to open face/goggles as it would suit the cars look much better .....

Hells Bells Sam, on that basis the guys in historics would be wearing leather flying helmets.

MGdavid, the HANS prevents hyper-extension of the neck in head-on accidents. This appears to be the type of accident that can readily cause basal skull fracture.
Sadly it does little in lateral stops, where the neck is still extremely vulnerable - hence the high sided seats or cockpit surrounds.

I imagine that as more data becomes available, they will be made compulsory. Sooner or later someone is going to sue and the governing body will need to protect itself from threats of negligence.

Two of our drivers have worn them for two seasons and there has never been a problem with scrutineers.

[Lola]

all the people who voted yes? I bet most of them have never sat in a racing car. F1 armchair enthusiasts!
The cost of Hans etc would price many out of racing. I believe its down to choice..... who takes the risks?

[darvi]

The other problem is space in the cockpit between the helemt and the headrest. In some cars (mine for example) this would require the chassis being changed.

Out of interest, how many lives would it have saved in British club racing?

[RickP:Clio51]

Well it would have saved a racer in a saloon at Thruxton earlier this year... I imagine his family wish it was compulsory?
This is a pretty astonishing discussion, but I guess it highlights the confusion currently being spoken.
I wear a HANS device, and I wouldn't race anything without it, I can understand people not wanting to pay the £600 or so to buy it because it's far more important to have a new set of tyres on the car than to protect your neck. YEAH RIGHT!
The Hutchens is not the same at all, it reduces about 20% of the load on the neck in an impact, the HANS about 90%.
So every 10 accidents you have that might have put you in a wheelchair or worse, 9 you'll walk away from...
The issue is clouded by the need for a decent helmet and whilst the Brits are stupid enuff to let you race in a BSI standard helmet and a Proban racesuit, the rest of the world isn't.
There is a list of approved helmets, scrutineers will have this list at decent events and will fail your helmet if you've applied the posts yourselves to an non-approved one.
Stand 21 are the official UK supplier and their new HANS is a significant improvement (and cheaper) than the old ones being made in Germany and pushed by Schroth (who also have been known to claim you must buy their belts as well).
If you buy a HANS, they will come and help you choose the right inclination for the type of car so it's not a complicated process. And since they employ the guy who fits all the F1 guys, occasionally he's available to help you out as well.
I am sure it will be compulsory in Europe, long before the very lax British authorities catch up so I doubt you've got much to worry about.
In the meantime, I've met the inventor, Jim Downing on several occasions. Apart from being a great supporter of sportscar racing, he also isn't concerned with making a penny out of the HANS. His concern is that he sees people die who would be unhurt and the numbers make it a complete no-brainer decision.
Dale Earhardt was the big opponent to the HANS device in NASCAR, his impact speed with the wall was significantly under 100mph. He would be with us if he'd been wearing a HANS. As would the majority of guys killed in NASCAR in the past decade I'm told...

If you don't get above 60mph, you probably don't need one.

If you have no family who will ask why you didn't buy one instead of a new set of wets as they bury you, you probably don't need one.

This is a significant safety step forward, it is technological progress and drivers should embrace it whether or not it's compulsory.

Our sport is about racing, not dying.

Rick

[matt_tentenths]

I wear one for club racing (bmws) and have done now for two years without a problem.

I can't drive a race-car without one now - like driving a road-car without your seatbelt on.

[Fan]

Originally posted by RickP:Clio51
Well it would have saved a racer in a saloon at Thruxton earlier this year... I imagine his family wish it was compulsory?
This is a pretty astonishing discussion, but I guess it highlights the confusion currently being spoken.
I wear a HANS device, and I wouldn't race anything without it, I can understand people not wanting to pay the £600 or so to buy it because it's far more important to have a new set of tyres on the car than to protect your neck. YEAH RIGHT!
The Hutchens is not the same at all, it reduces about 20% of the load on the neck in an impact, the HANS about 90%.
So every 10 accidents you have that might have put you in a wheelchair or worse, 9 you'll walk away from...
The issue is clouded by the need for a decent helmet and whilst the Brits are stupid enuff to let you race in a BSI standard helmet and a Proban racesuit, the rest of the world isn't.
There is a list of approved helmets, scrutineers will have this list at decent events and will fail your helmet if you've applied the posts yourselves to an non-approved one.
Stand 21 are the official UK supplier and their new HANS is a significant improvement (and cheaper) than the old ones being made in Germany and pushed by Schroth (who also have been known to claim you must buy their belts as well).
If you buy a HANS, they will come and help you choose the right inclination for the type of car so it's not a complicated process. And since they employ the guy who fits all the F1 guys, occasionally he's available to help you out as well.
I am sure it will be compulsory in Europe, long before the very lax British authorities catch up so I doubt you've got much to worry about.
In the meantime, I've met the inventor, Jim Downing on several occasions. Apart from being a great supporter of sportscar racing, he also isn't concerned with making a penny out of the HANS. His concern is that he sees people die who would be unhurt and the numbers make it a complete no-brainer decision.
Dale Earhardt was the big opponent to the HANS device in NASCAR, his impact speed with the wall was significantly under 100mph. He would be with us if he'd been wearing a HANS. As would the majority of guys killed in NASCAR in the past decade I'm told...

If you don't get above 60mph, you probably don't need one.

If you have no family who will ask why you didn't buy one instead of a new set of wets as they bury you, you probably don't need one.

This is a significant safety step forward, it is technological progress and drivers should embrace it whether or not it's compulsory.

Our sport is about racing, not dying.

Rick

Could not have said it better. Nothing like heading for a wall at 100 + mph wishing you'd paid £600 for a HANS system. As of next year I'll be using one in both single seaters and production cars.

[johnw]

Originally posted by Lola
all the people who voted yes? I bet most of them have never sat in a racing car. F1 armchair enthusiasts!
The cost of Hans etc would price many out of racing. I believe its down to choice..... who takes the risks?

Lola
Bit of a sweeping assumption methinks! I race and voted yes. As for pricing people out of racing, it would only mean missing three or four races. You don't have any choice about belts and helmets - what's the difference?

Rick P
Great post. If there is no royalty payment due to Hubbard, any idea why the price is so high?

[Adam43]

High price? It is a specialised piece of kit manufactured in low numbers.

[greenbean]

thanks rick p:clio51 and mat i could not have said it better my self. lola i am far from an armchair enthusiast have been involved with motorsport rescue for the last 10 yrs and have driven racing cars although not in compertion. darvi i would say that at least 3 driver would be still alive today if they had been wearing one

[AndyV]

"it would only mean missing three or four races."

That's half my season! so I'd be guarantee'd safety for four races as the car would stay in the garage. I am not against the Hans but having to shell out for a compulsary one (plus a helmet as I know mine is not compatable) would wipe me out for most the year. And as quoted in previous posts the Hans works for frontal impacts so for full all round protection eared seats are needed, why just protect for frontals?.

I know cash is really no justification against improving safety but down in the weeds at my end of motorsport big chunks of money will just keeps me off the track. Racing with the best safety kit I can afford is my choice and my risk.

Andy

[MGDavid]

thanks johnw - but I am saddened to see so much emotive talk here (not necessarily from you). All this 'so-and-so would have been saved' and 'would not have died' - unprovable statements, even if true, being one-offs, do not represent the whole picture. Where is the empirical data across all racing and the whole country in support of forcing their use? If you want to justify it on the basis of say, one saved life per season then I shall immediately start a protest group to ban racing altogether - far safer. I do not agree with turning our sport back into the elitist game for the wealthy that it was back in the fifties. Make no mistake - this IMO is ALL about lining the pockets of those who run and make a living out of our sport, hiding behind the political correctness of safety. If they really wanted to save lives they could start some initiatives to improving driving standards on the roads,( subsidised skidpan instruction at circuits to all and sundry for example) - there's 3500 deaths a year to work on there, not the odd half dozen. Maybe our sport is moving towards a separation of amateur and professional - let the amateurs run with NO advertising or sponsor decals on cars at all, to a much reduced set of minimum standards.
<rant off>

[jminsh]

Originally posted by diz
It would be interesting to hear from Jason Minshaw of Demon Tweeks. He recently had a biggie and wrecked his top of the range helmet and gave himself a hairline skull fracture.
Await a post from jminsh

Here it is !

I will defo have a HANS device from now on, I couldn't believe how far my head and neck had streched before it hit the chasis and split my GP5 Arai open on the left side cheek piece .

I am extremley lucky to be here at all and i defo think they are a help rather than a hinderence (What cost can you put on your life )!!!!

[johnw]

AndyV
It would reperesent a third of my entry fees for the season, but only one Pembrey meeting if I take into account towing fuel, overnight stop, etc. etc.
I do have a compatible helmet and seat with ears, so you are right, I am in a much better position than you to do this at minimum cost.

Adam Ashmore
Is it any more specialised than a helmet?
I cannot see why it could not be moulded in less exotic materials for substantially less, especially if there is no royalty payment.
Your point about small numbers is well made, but that of course is the issue.

MGDavid
There can never be any proof, just good research pointing at a justification.
Safety is an interesting subject as it's so emotional. From this and other threads it's obvious that we are a mix of types, from favouring free will at all costs, to absolute compunction. I probably fall between the two, but I would rather that you were there to argue with, than not.
See the last line in RickP's post.

[1200Datto27]

John,

After reading the FIA paperwork on the HANS system (and recovering from the headache it caused :0 ), I believe that they have to be made in Cf as no other materials would have the compatible strenght/weight ratio that is required to be approved. If you made it out of fibreglass, you would be looking at around 5~6 kgs in weight (according to a friend of mine who is a specialist cf/fg moulder) and very bulky. It also would not cost that much less to make in fibreglass.

[ss_collins]

If people wanted hans then more people would have them - I don't see a single driver in my series with one - and its the biggest single seater championship in the UK (I think - 60+ entries for silverstone)