"Fernando, you're faster than Fisi, you can pass him"

[Wrex]

It worked on Fisi, why did'nt they tell him to pass Kimi?

Please excuse my sarcasm, but this peeves me a little for 2 reasons.

Firstly, had that been Jean Todt talking to Michael or Rubins, we would have a 6 page thread already.

Secondly, I read recently Alonso commenting about Michael and Ferrari recently, turning his nose down with remarks along the lines of "I dont need or want help from a team mate to win my championship".

*cough*

... as though none of us heard the radio in Canada.

Anyway, I digress.

When are we getting rid of this stupid team order rule. I have never supported it, never will for reasons I can rant about some other time. Its pretty obvious its not stopping anything, so why have it?

At least in the old days we knew when they were doing it, this was is just a farce.

[Dixie Flatline]

[pedant]"you're", not "your"[/pedant]

Seriously, clever wasn't it? How to make a team order not look like a team order when you know your radio communications are likely to be broadcast to an audience numbering millions.

I admire Renault's ingenuity and for that reason support the retention of the rule.

[Kicking-back]

No problem with it at all.

[Gt_R]

From my personal point of view..while i'm not a fan of team-orders..i accept it's existence as well as respect the rights of the team to enforce it when required. This is reflected and well documented in my past post.

But what Renault/Alonso done this time is not about team orders. It's the blatant assumption of taking us fans as fools.

I'd have respected their call if they simply put over the radio "Fisi, let Alonso through". Afterall, it is what i have expected. But to pretend to make Alonso seem like a bloody fast racer and worse still, put it on radio broadcast smacks of complete disrespect of viewer intelligence...

I could have closed my eyes and say Montoya letting Kimi through at Hungary Lap 1 as a driver arrangement and let it pass (hence i din't mention it)...but Renault's one is laughable.

And then, for Alonso to claim high moral ground and Flavio to insist "Renault don't do team orders"...well it's bull*.

[Gore]

I loved it - smart way of getting around a stupid rule.

Would still rather see the back of the rule though.

[Menelaos]

I don't understand what was wrong with it. He was on lower fuel he didn't need to waste any time. The same thing happened with JPM and Raikkonen three weeks ago. I don't understand why everyone starts screaming and shouting about these things and someone will always come up with "yeah, if that was Ferrari you'd all say it was wrong, but now you say it was right etc". No, that's not the case.

And what's more, when one driver goes for the title and the other is 50 points behind it's not unfair that one driver will let the other past him. What Ferrari did was 100% different, they were backing one PERSON not the driver who was going for the title. There's a huge difference. I wish Alonso would stay behind Fisichela, that would be so much better for McLaren, but Renault have been fair to their drivers and there's nothing to complain about.

Originally Posted by Gt_R

I'd have respected their call if they simply put over the radio "Fisi, let Alonso through". Afterall, it is what i have expected. But to pretend to make Alonso seem like a bloody fast racer and worse still, put it on radio broadcast smacks of complete disrespect of viewer intelligence...

I kind of agree with this, though......

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

But what Renault/Alonso done this time is not about team orders. It's the blatant assumption of taking us fans as fools.

I'd have respected their call if they simply put over the radio "Fisi, let Alonso through". Afterall, it is what i have expected. But to pretend to make Alonso seem like a bloody fast racer and worse still, put it on radio broadcast smacks of complete disrespect of viewer intelligence...

Renault didn't choose to put it on the TV broadcast!

Anyway, it's a ridiculous rule.

As for taking the fans as "fools" as you put it - the people at the track didn't know about it, so it doesn't matter and the people at home watching on TV were a) kept fully informed and b) are owed nothing by the teams.

[BootsOntheSide]

Renault tell Alonso to pass Fisichella, but how did FIsichella know to pull over and slow at that precise moment? They must have either said something to him during the race, or had a pre-arragned plan to do this if neccessary. It's not as bad as Austria, because it didn't have a direct effect on the race outcome, but it's still dubious at best. Nice try by the Ferrari obsessive to deflect criticism there.

[Hazza]

Will BAR get in trouble for "Jenson, if you can let Sato through without loosing too much time do so." ? That sounds worse than the Renault one...

I guess they'll through the rule book at them if they feel they can even the title race out a little bit.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Wrex

It worked on Fisi, why did'nt they tell him to pass Kimi?

One problem with this, Fernando wasn't faster than Kimi

[alfasud]

Maybe at the end of the race they said to him "Fernando, Juan is going to fall off, you can pass him"

and he did... but it probably doesn't work on Finns.

[neilap]

As for Fisi knowing I am sure it could have been broadcasted simultainously to both. The rule is silly. I dont like the fact that orders are given but its a fact of F1 life. There was nothing genious about it. It was almost insulting to those who listen to the radio communications.

[Gt_R]

KB, i agree with you that fans watching TV are owed nothing by the teams.. in fact, i said this very much in the past that teams should do what they deem best for them, only to be repeatedly told that "fans are most important, and that's why teams exist"..or something to that respect.

The issue is not the right or wrongs of team order. at least i dont think that's Wrex's intention. Rather...how a team thought fit to make up a poor disguise to trick us into believing that Alonso really overtook because he's a quicker driver, not because Fisi made it easy.

The argument of different fuel load doesn't stick. Fisi ran merely a lap or 2 longer..and it won't make such a difference in the speed sector.

The move to switch their position is the right one. Alonso is under pressure from JPM.It's only logical to put Fisi between them and let Alonso unimpeded race Kimi. What stunk is that Renault see it fit to bluff about it. And given Alonso's statement last week, i wonder how he felt about getting ahead of Fisi in that lap.

[Menelaos]

Originally Posted by alfasud

Maybe at the end they said to him "Fernando, Juan is going to fall off, you can pass him"

and he did... but it proably doesn't work on Finns.

Yeah, but we missed that on the TV, voodoo stuff

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by Wrex

When are we getting rid of this stupid team order rule. I have never supported it, never will for reasons I can rant about some other time. Its pretty obvious its not stopping anything, so why have it?

At least in the old days we knew when they were doing it, this was is just a farce.

I guess now that a combination of the past few years rules changes and the 2005 Ferrari/Bridgestone debacle has achieved the desired result: the end of Ferrari domination; the team orders rule can be dropped.

Or they can create a new rule that says if you phrase the order by saying: "Driver X you are FASTER than driver Y, overtake"; instead of: "Driver X, move over for driver Y"; everthing is fine...

...unless it's Ferrari.

[Gt_R]

Sigh..at the risk of boring myself..

Boots if for once you can wipe a team-preferrence out of an argument and stick to something objective

Since you insist on dragging Ferrari into the equation. What Renault did is equivalent to what Ferrari did way back in the late 90s at a particular French GP... saying that Michael passed Irvine because Irvine was having "brake problems". What's your take on that? And don't try to convince me that what Renault did is a morally better thing than that. Both stink.

[Knowlesy]

Never liked team orders so didn't much care for what happened today.

But the only reason there was ever any massive issue with Ferrari team orders is the stage of the season they were implemented, plus the massive car advantage they had. I mean, team orders in round six of the championship equipped with F2002's? Come on!

Compare that with Ferrari again, in 1997. Slightly inferior car, penultimate round at Suzuka. They played the team game that day and whilst it's still not ideal, it was fine because of the championship situation.

Just needs a bit of perspective this.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

The issue is not the right or wrongs of team order. at least i dont think that's Wrex's intention. Rather...how a team thought fit to make up a poor disguise to trick us into believing that Alonso really overtook because he's a quicker driver, not because Fisi made it easy.

Ah, but you've seen through their cunning plan, so it hasn't worked!

[Mr V]

I believe the difference is that there is no way Fisi can win the WDC, Fernando can. Much the same (as knowlesy points out) with Japan 1997, which, imo, was totally fair.

Going back to Austrai 2002, which is, where all this started, is that that was a team favouring one driver over the other.

[Liz]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Sigh..at the risk of boring myself..

Boots if for once you can wipe a team-preferrence out of an argument and stick to something objective

Since you insist on dragging Ferrari into the equation. What Renault did is equivalent to what Ferrari did way back in the late 90s at a particular French GP... saying that Michael passed Irvine because Irvine was having "brake problems". What's your take on that? And don't try to convince me that what Renault did is a morally better thing than that. Both stink.

I agree with your final sentence. Irvine, who was on the podium as I recall, gave a big smirk at the camera when he mentioned his 'brake problems' which made it perfectly clear that it was a set-up. I would think the teams would find this kind of thing embarrassing and I think if you can't pass your teammate you ought to stay behind him. I expect to hear a lot of 'spin' from Max on this one.

[Wrex]

Dixie - If your checking that post, I want you to check all of my posts. Let me know when your done.

K-B, a thorough and comprehensive opinion as always

Gt_R, yes, the hypocracy stinks at Renault.

Menelaos, not sure what your post was about, because your last paragraph contradicted the first one.

Boots, I assume Fisi got a message "Alonso is faster, he'll probably pass you" As for the 'Ferrari obsessive trying to deflect criticism', give me a break. Your not new here Boots, so dont pretend to be niave to the Ferrari bashing thats the norm (it seems, only when they are slaughtering the field).

V, wise ass. At the time of posting (in Australia) he had just passed him and done the fastest lap. I just assumed Kimi was'nt aware of the plan.


As mentioned in my opening post, my only issue with Renault is that they (Alonso and Flav) made comments about team orders in the past. Personally I think they should be allowed to race there team as they see fit. I can tell you if I were footing the $300mil per year budget I would want to do whatever I wanted. If one driver is more likely to bring me the WDC than the other, so be it.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Liz

I expect to hear a lot of 'spin' from Max on this one.

I expect Max will say absolutely nothing about it.

[strider]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Renault tell Alonso to pass Fisichella, but how did FIsichella know to pull over and slow at that precise moment?

At a guess, it was supposedly an instruction to Alonso that was also transmitted to Fisichella. He could work it out from there.

The rule is a ridiculous one, not least because the teams can work around it so easily.

[FPV GTHO]

I havent got that much of a problem with team orders, just when the drivers and team turn around and make hypocrites of themselves by condemning it.

[mixxer]

The message was probably broad-casted over both drivers radio channels at the same time, neatly circumventing the rules, well done Renault.