Increasing participation in motorsport

[Al Weyman]

I don't think the fact that there are double the cars on the road (I question that figure BTW) has much bearing on the wealth of the nation or peoples disposable income. Many people have been forced to live further from their places of work by high house prices so the car is now not a luxury but a neccessity.

20 years ago I earn as much if not more than I do today, today I hear 'Our Ken' plans to raise my council tax (I have propertu in the GLC area) by £300 a year to pay for some other hairbrained scheme no doubt, if I want to go on holiday its gonna cost me another £40 etc etc and this is just this week alone. Times it over the last 10 years and my disposable income has plummetted. In my business I just cannot go on pushing up my prices year in year out, some things like vinyl lettering because of market forces and cheap Chinese machines and hooky eBay software I am actually charging less than I did 10 years ago! If I tried to charge the extra I would go out of business but for some reason the clubs and track owners. MSA etc. seem to be on another planet and see fit to just add cost of inflation plus increases every season and that is despite an obvious decline in particpants.

The survey is interesting enough but trust me the primary reason is Cost, Cost and cost again. You know something and I am sure you have always been there when you discuss with someone for the first time about your participation in the sport. They invariable come out with, 'So what do you get prize money or something for winning?', err no nothing in fact we pay to participate, 'You pay, how much!' Oh about £175 entry, 'You must be bloody mad!' is the general reaction.

PS I will add to this cost argument as I know people that you would not mind being a bob or two behind who have given up in the sport siting the reason that although they have the funds they simply cannot 'justify' the expenditure for the 15minutes or so of racing they get out of it. The prices need to drop drastically if this sport is ever going to apeal to the masses. I said it 15 years ago when I was running the Racing Saloon Car Club and I will say it now, I was once told by an emminent club offical that they would prefer 10 cars on the grid paying £100 than thirty paying £60 (or there abouts), reason the later meant more work for them and the spectator can go and take a hike (which they did in fact!)!

[HoTWire]

From my point of view as someone that has been wanting to go circuit racing for many years its just not cost effective... I mean I'm on a budget, so I've bought a spotless car as a base for modification for £1,250 ... now I can spend another £500-£1000 getting it up to spec for a first season of circuit racing (cage, seat, gloves, helemet etc.) .. THEN I have to pay over the cost of the original car for a years worth of racing. OR I spend £200 on scrap yard parts and take it to RWYB drag events. Sure the actual track time is fairly minimal, but its all about a day out enjoy your and other peoples cars.

Add to this that even if I've spent my £3,000+ for a car, prep and a years worth of track time, its not going to be remotely competative.

I do think a lot of this all comes down to cost. The enthusiasm and the desire to drive fast on circuits is there, just not the finances.

What can be done about that I don't know... there must be a reason that race entry is so high?

[Al Weyman]

High UK land prices must come into the equation, insurance and the fear of litigation, (I remember the case of a particpant suing the oganising club despite signing the waivers and the cost per race shot up overnight to cover the insurance agianst getting sued, I feel sorry for the guy but he knew the risks and has since cost a lot of people a hell of a lot of money), high UK wages and the need for so many staff to control X ammount of spectators (Health and safety gone mad again) etc etc. If nothing can be done then I fear that along with the increasing panic about man supposably causing global warming (a cycle of events that has happened since the planet came into being, did caveman cause the Ice Age?) that motorsport will become a thing of the past.

[Dennis.Doyle]

I have to admit that I answered that questionnairre largely along the lines that it's all too expensive, but then I think everything always has been too expensive.

I'm sure initial costs as listed above are a major deterrent to entry, but they obviousy aren't the only thing. I reckon there is plenty of money being spent on "pimping rides", max power etc.

Can't help feeling it was a bit perverse to bury the survey at the bottom of a site only visitied by the addicts who haven't given up the sport. Perhaps the survey should have been conducted amongst people burning up Tesco car parks, drifting, cruising, at "run what ya brung" meets & whatever else people are doing?

[HoTWire]

Originally Posted by Dennis.Doyle

Can't help feeling it was a bit perverse to bury the survey at the bottom of a site only visitied by the addicts who haven't given up the sport. Perhaps the survey should have been conducted amongst people burning up Tesco car parks, drifting, cruising, at "run what ya brung" meets & whatever else people are doing?

I'm hoping to get some representation from the MSA at the Retro Rides Show (www.retro-rides-show.com) either as a stand in the trade area or better still as a speaker in the evening to give a talk on getting involved with racing.

[Biff]

Well done HoTWire, PM me if you need any help.

[Dennis.Doyle]

Originally Posted by HoTWire

I'm hoping to get some representation from the MSA at the Retro Rides Show (www.retro-rides-show.com) either as a stand in the trade area or better still as a speaker in the evening to give a talk on getting involved with racing.

Excellent - the idea of of an "outreach" program including a RWYB sprint is just the sort of initiative that's lacking.

Also, reckon there might be some mileage in running such classes in conventional sprints - would suit those of us who've largely given up on the idea of building class-competitive cars on cost grounds.

[Biff]

The cost of racing to the competitor in this country is such because the way racing is structured and funded has never changed.

The clubs go to the circuit owners for a date and they are given a price, then they add all the extras, Doctors, recovery, programmes etc and come up with a final figure they have to cover. Typical figure for a day at certain circuits being around £25,000. This is then covered by the competitor. The circuit has the gate money.

This is the way it has been for ages. The requirement is for other money to come into the sport, for this to happen the sport has to be sold better, be higher profile in the media and be exciting.

There are a lot of synergies between our sport and horse racing but look how they run things.

Betting is a major player, there is no reason that can not be the case with motor racing, its simple to put together a good system if you forget how we run races now.

How come the three o'clock at Lingfield on a Wednesday afternoon, which lasts about eight minutes and has ten runners has a sponsor with £5,000 worth of prize money, yet we have nothing for a well fought 20 minute race at Brands on a Sunday afternoon. Because we have not moved on from 40 years ago, we still run our sport as a rich boys playtime as it was in the 1950's.

We need the sports profile to be lifted, more effort by circuit owners, clubs and competitors to sell races and race meetings as a viable means of advertising for third parties. To do this though the product has to be good!

I'm sure every organiser would like to charge the competitor nothing to compete and get their money from elsewhere but a shift has to take place from funding the individual to funding the event. When this happens we can expect lower costs as a competitor.

This is getting away from the original thread a bit, but these are the sort of individual ideas which need to be put into the survey so they can see where we need to change. Whether anything happens is another matter, but you can't change anything if you don't put down what you really feel.

[Stephen Green]

I seem to remember there was a betting company at a Brands Hatch BTCC meeting a year or two ago?

[Suze]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Spot-on Stephen, anyone who couldn't be bothered to complete the survey missed a huge opportunity to give their opinions. My email got a reply within 24 hours from a Principal Consultant at the survey company about followup.
But then as a nation aren't we renowned for whinging rather than being positive?

Was that the same person whose email was at the end of the survey, David? I also emailed as an aside but haven't heard anything, yet...

[Biff]

Thats right. However they were trying to run betting based around the way we run races now. It would need a change in format to allow the punters to have a chance of using their knowledge to estimate who would win.

Qualifying would be for points but not for grid positions, this would give the punters knowledge on who is fastest on the day. Grid slots would be drawn from a hat for the whole grid, as they do in horse racing, the punters have a starting grid slot to way up against a qualifying time as well as any form which may gradually be built up. The races would then have to be short (15 laps) max on short circuits, (10) laps max on the longer ones. Long enough for faster guys to get through if they are good, but long enough for a midfield man to stay out in front without being caught.

There would be no novice racers in these races, and no classes as such.
Regulations would be very wide to allow lots of different cars in. eg. Touring cars built before 1999, max 3 litres, run on treaded road tyres, naturally aspirated, standard bodyshell. (this sort of thing). Some existing races would fit anyway, caterhams etc., where there is only one class.

Clerks all around the course to police driving standards. Straight after the race they would announce if there would be an inquiry into the race result due to bad driving, make an uncontestable decision immediately and then announce the result and any penalties / exclusions.

Punters could then bet either with bookies giving odds or on the tote.

Profit divided. To the betting company, the organiser/circuit and the sport. Income increases, cost to competitor decreases ( providing we all turn up and fill the grid).

Simplified a little (lot) I know, but we need to start to look at different ways of doing things.

[HoTWire]

How much of a part does race sponsorship take in paying for a series... if you have say the "Toyo tyres saloons" or whatever,.. surely the cost of entry is offset against the income from the sponsorship??

[Peter Mallett]

Depends and I'm not certain of that particular one but it would probably be that the competitors get a discount on the tyres and the company donates a certain amount to the organising club to be expended as the club sees fit. One club uses this type of financial support for raceday hospitality and post event parties for drivers and their families.

I don't know what would happen if a sponsor put up the track cost for a particular race. It is worth bearing in mind that AFAIK anyone receiving prize money will be taxed on it.

[Oaksnaf]

You should be taxed on your prize money, same with those who win on the punt - its an income that is taxable. But who does it? I guess if they really wanted to tighten up they could get you for not taxing your winnings.

[Biff]

From the individual person (racer) its covered by your tax assessment, same as any other declareable extra income. On the punt it is done at source by the betting company. You can either pay the tax on your stake, or pay the tax on the winnings, depends which you want to do.

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by Biff

From the individual person (racer) its covered by your tax assessment, same as any other declareable extra income. On the punt it is done at source by the betting company. You can either pay the tax on your stake, or pay the tax on the winnings, depends which you want to do.

Here the betting company (TAB) takes out roughly 12% of all winnings from the pool. But then when you receive your winnings you should really be taxed again. Its a tax on a tax basically. Thats as far as I understand it.

[Biff]

You've got me stumped there!

[Oaksnaf]

For instance if the win pool is $10,000 the maximum the TAB will payout to customer's is $8800 roughly. They get to keep the 12%.

Then if you are a professional punter, if you say win $4000 of the $8800 payout (highly unlikely) you have to have that taxed as its counted as an income, and as a professional punter its your occupation.

So not only do the TAB take 12% of your winnings, but then the government wants to step in and take away more of your winnings.

Anyways this is really off topic.

As for motorsport participation, open test days, and "win a ride in X category when winning Y championship" seem to work well.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Biff

I'm sure every organiser would like to charge the competitor nothing to compete and get their money from elsewhere but a shift has to take place from funding the individual to funding the event. When this happens we can expect lower costs as a competitor.

Biff you bring up many many good points.
Entry fees are charged at ALL levels of motorsports for each event, from a few hundered to thousands. Entry fees show committment by the competitor too.

Sponsorship come in many forms, MONEY ( Not very likey), Parts, ( possible ), discount on parts and equipment ( more likely) to contignacy prizes. You win or place in the top three of a NATIONAL race, then you get some money or parts. With these you might be able to cover the few hundred you spent on entry fees.

Big events, which we all want, take large promotors and promote or market a prodouct to a large audience, more then the motorsports comunity.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

You should be taxed on your prize money, same with those who win on the punt - its an income that is taxable. But who does it? I guess if they really wanted to tighten up they could get you for not taxing your winnings.

Isn't this way so many proffessinal racers move their residents to Monaco? NO income tax. And file the proper paper work with the race orgainzation which states they are exempt* from that countries ( were the race is located) taxing authorities. In most cases perfectly legal.

* exempt or minimal tax of 15% which when the proper tax paperwork is filed with that countries tax authority is refunded.

[AU N EGL]

The other thing about prize money, drivers do not necessarly get the money they win.

Some drivers are under contract by a team. They recieve pay or salary from that team. ANy prize money won is assigend back to that team, or a portion is assgined back to that team in lew of paying the drivers full pay for that event.

[Al Weyman]

Hey tax away on me winnings (there are'nt any but lets be hyperthetical) and I will right every penny I spend on the sport as expenditure and put in for a nice fat tax rebate.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Hey tax away on me winnings (there are'nt any but lets be hyperthetical) and I will right every penny I spend on the sport as expenditure and put in for a nice fat tax rebate.

You and me both.

[Oaksnaf]

If you got paid cash for whatever work you do during the week, would it be possible to turn that cash into a payment made by an employer (a mate who runs his own business) for your race weekend duties? And since you are getting paid to race, that would make a lot of the materials, expenditure, fuel, accomodation taxable?

I think Im way off the mark, but surely there is a way of dodging the system.

[Biff]

Many have tried, some have managed it, some thought they had managed it, but now are on holiday for a long time.

If anyone has a foolproof method, tell all of us will you !!