WMSC hearing - McLaren fined $100 million/excluded from WCC (MERGED)

[Knowlesy]

OK, the WMSC espionage hearing began early on this morning and has broken for lunch right now.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62305

Notes:

• Ross Brawn is present, after giving a written submission.
• Lewis Hamilton was briefly present, but not questioned. The news footage showed him leaving the building looking very upbeat indeed (bit early to read into that though).
• Teams represented in the hearing include Williams, Renault, Spyker and Red Bull Racing.

The hearing will resume shortly and McLaren are scheduled to hold a press conference an hour after the hearing verdict is reached.

[Sodemo]

No Honda or BMW present...

[Knowlesy]

And here is Mike Coughlan's version of the various events plus an apology:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62303

[Ralf's Girl]

Coughlan's version is just a bit odd - it's basically, "I told him to stop contacting me then took masses of confidential Ferrari information because I was curious and thought it would be rude not to take it". I mean, what???

[Senna05]

Good work Knowlesy.

We won't hav any idea in Oz whats going on till 9am tommorow, so keep us upt to date, mate!

Interesting they used Lewis as a character witness.

I heard rumblings before that Mclaren were going to use the arguement - We are in trouble for having attained document that prove that Ferrari Cheat - but this would have ruined their old argument. Will they do it now?

[Gt_R]

Mike's statement is weird. I mean, obviously he is trying his best to be kind to Mclaren (whom he did wrong to), to his wife (who unfortunately got dragged in) and to Ferrari (who is going to take civil action against him)... but his part of destroying the hardcopy, claiming not wanting anything to do with it ...yet he goes on to copy it onto disk. Not the best way of wanting to stay away from those information. His excuse is equally dubious, why not just return the whole copy to Nigel, or to Ferrari directly?

The hearing would be best served if the details are later made public. It may stir some heated discussions in forums worldwide.. but at least we won't be kept unknowing if the decision is made because of the WDC fight or because of any team preferences..

Whatever the outcome, nobody will be pleased. Some Ferrari fans will feel it not enough, however harsh the punishment. Some Mclaren fans will feel it too harsh, however light the punishment. Let's hope some degree of sanity prevails after the outcome.

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

Coughlan's version is just a bit odd - it's basically, "I told him to stop contacting me then took masses of confidential Ferrari information because I was curious and thought it would be rude not to take it". I mean, what???

Well it does blow a tiny hole in Mclaren's case that no-one knew about it till the investigation if he;s speaking the truth that is. The question is, rather than installing a firewall etc. etc. why didn't Mclaren just report to the Ferrari or the FIA. Also why on earth did Coughlan keep the documents at home rather than destroy it even though he says he had no intention of using it and he had gone through it to satisfy his 'curiousity'.

[Senna05]

No doubt this sort of thing goes on all the time, but this time someone was caught because he was too lazy to scan them himself....

[Kidzer]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

His excuse is equally dubious, why not just return the whole copy to Nigel, or to Ferrari directly?

That's the bit that got me, destroy the originals and keep a copy on a different media incase the individual that gave it to him wanted it back - why?

It's unlikley he gave away the 'Master' of anything, Stepney could get as many copies of those documents as he wanted I imagine - I admit I haven't been keeping up with this scandal at all, but it seems a very poor defence justification for that particular action of his.

[NAC]

Nice work Knowlesy

This on formula1.com with time line & pics outside hearing

[Inigo Montoya]

Pretty weak stuff from Coughlan. Sounds like a desperate man to me.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Kidzer

That's the bit that got me, destroy the originals and keep a copy on a different media incase the individual that gave it to him wanted it back - why?

Because it may come in useful later (hands up who wouldn't do that)??? His biggest cock up was not hiding the disks very well.....

Having read through the posted link, it all seems like pretty standard commercial shenanigans to me....bit of a storm in a tea cup really. Trust the press (and the Italians) to try and ruin the best F1 for years - they should just leave it be and get on with the racing.

[Inigo Montoya]

<Raises hand> I wouldn't do it.

And the nationality of the teams involved has very little to do with this.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Pretty weak stuff from Coughlan. Sounds like a desperate man to me.

He's not a polititian or a lawyer - he's a geeky engineer with associated engineering curiosity, who, like most engineers has little or no concept, and often, don't even care of how the commercial side of things work, as long as they get to do what they want to do, which is engineering, and to find better ways of engineering. (I should know...I'm one too).

He's desparate because he is probably not going to be able to work in the industry again (Although who knows - if that tart Kate Moss can snort a load of coke, get villified in the press, and still get a huge modelling contract....)

It's a shame that an industry that should be driven by engineering excellence, (and great driving!) is going to same way as the rest of industry - to the court room.

James

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

<Raises hand> I wouldn't do it.

And the nationality of the teams involved has very little to do with this.

Sorry, by Italians, I meant the Ferrari team, not Italians in general!!

[Inigo Montoya]

Being an engineer yourself, you should know that (at least in Canada) you are bound by law to a code of ethics. Trying to justify his actions based on engineering curiosity is weak... very weak.

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by JamesH

It's a shame that an industry that should be driven by engineering excellence, (and great driving!) is going to same way as the rest of industry - to the court room.

Although, if Macca did use Ferrari data and try new things, i wonder how that constitutes 'engineering excellence'.

[chunterer]

Hmmm, I heard on the beeb at lunchtime that if McLaren get penalised in any way they will appeal immediately and also offer up alleged evidence that 'another leading team' has been 'cheating.'

Naturally I doubt we'd even dare write who that team might actually be but i'm assuming it isn't the Red boys?!

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by chunterer

also offer up alleged evidence that 'another leading team' has been 'cheating.'

This other leading team is Renault. Apparently Renault stole Mclaren's cooling and electronic systems.

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlin...13100444.shtml

[chunterer]

Well i'm kinda glad you've posted that and not me!

[Knowlesy]

I do wonder how many of us, in Coughlan's situation, would return these files.

To be honest, even if he had returned them, we'd still be sitting here today debating all of this.

It is an extreme and very public variation of common practice.

[Kidzer]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hmmm, I heard on the beeb at lunchtime that if McLaren get penalised in any way they will appeal immediately and also offer up alleged evidence that 'another leading team' has been 'cheating.'

Naturally I doubt we'd even dare write who that team might actually be but i'm assuming it isn't the Red boys?!

Shouldn't they offer this evidence anyway, in the interests of keeping the sport as fair as possible?

Those kinda' things seem a bit 'playground-war' like to me - if they have evidence of a wrongdoing by any team, they should bring it to the FIA, seperate to any other things they are involved in!

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Well i'm kinda glad you've posted that and not me!

f1-live.com did....not me....

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Being an engineer yourself, you should know that (at least in Canada) you are bound by law to a code of ethics. Trying to justify his actions based on engineering curiosity is weak... very weak.

Hmm, I doubt it's a law. Maybe a voluntary code of ethics, but not a law (but then I don't live in Canada)

It it wasnt curiosity, what was it? The company I work for buys in competitors devices, and out of curiosity, I took one apart the other day.

I suppose it possible that some of the features may influence what I do in the future (unlikely, because it 'excellence' level was below ours!), but it was curiosity first and foremost. The same curiosity that has engineers pouring over pictures of competitor product, the same curiosity that has them wandering around the trade shows looking at equipment etc.

Although, if Macca did use Ferrari data and try new things, i wonder how that constitutes 'engineering excellence'.

Well, I suppose it possible for someone else to come up with a good idea.....!!! If someone show me a competitor product with a feature on it that is better than what we have, then that is still engineering excellence (and if its not patented....)

James

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

f1-live.com did....not me....

They can get sued then!