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Old 23 Jun 2014, 23:55 (Ref:3425652)   #1151
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Audi and porsche not protesting the wing is basically saying touche...
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 01:01 (Ref:3425674)   #1152
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I would assume Audi and Porsche sat back and waited to see what ACO would do (as with Toyota's ludicrous "Wheel-arch extensions" which somehow functioned as wing extenders) and since ACO is silent, both firms are busy designing their own versions.

The morality here is complicated; I will not condemn or accept anyone's view to the exclusion of others because all sides seem to have rational points.

I will say that ultimately what is allowed is allowed, right or wrong, and the flex-wing seems to be allowed.

I am wondering if this will be even more important at high-downforce tracks because the relative speed gain compared to a high-downforce wing would be much greater, and a couple seconds on the straight could be a big deal.

if so I am pretty sure both Porsche and Audi will have something similar at Silverstone--but Silverstone is not a particularly slow track so maybe the flex-wing won't be top priority.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 05:42 (Ref:3425724)   #1153
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Silverstone... 2015? Because that was the opening round. Did you mean Austin? I think the wing was already on the car all year. But a new version was tested post Spa.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 06:27 (Ref:3425734)   #1154
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This is an interesting article- http://motoring.com.au/news/2014/car...s-toyota-44232 Rob Luepen had some words to say about Audi saying things are unequal...
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From our point of view there is no balancing required, there is no review required,” he said. “They (Audi) should not get a change because they went out with a hybrid system that is not developed, that is off the shelf and is only two megajoules."

“In the regulations it is very clear that the bigger hybrid system should have an advantage so they (Audi) should look at the bigger hybrid system and not be complaining that they haven’t got enough power or whatever."
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 07:03 (Ref:3425744)   #1155
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This is an interesting article- http://motoring.com.au/news/2014/car...s-toyota-44232 Rob Luepen had some words to say about Audi saying things are unequal...
Interestingly, in the French AutoHebdo magazine, Vasselon is reported to contend that Audi would still be advantaged by the current Appendix B figures...

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Le tableau des allocations d'énergie, défini par l'ACO et la FIA, va évoluer suite aux connaissances acquises sur les performances "mécaniques" de chaque LMP1-H. La Toyota ayant été plus rapide, craignez-vous un ajustement défavorable, qui pourrait influer sur la conception de cette voiture 2015 ?
Non. Normalement, la remise Ã* niveau du tableau d'allocations d'énergie ne doit pas déstabiliser ce que nous sommes en train de faire. Cela devrait d'ailleurs nous être favorable, car tout ce qui rétablit la parité essence/diesel est louable

Vous estimez donc que, malgré vos meilleures performances, cette équivalence est encore Ã* l'avantage du diesel ?
Oui, mais beaucoup moins que l'année dernière. C'est déjÃ* un pas important qui a fait que nous avons pu être compétitifs, mais il y a encore un déséquilibre. La performance pure est la combinaison de beaucoup de choses, de l'exploitation des pneus, de l'aéro, du système hybride, etc., le moteur n'étant qu'un des éléments, certes très important, que l'on peut compenser. L'an dernier, nous avions un tel déficit de puissance moteur que nous ne pouvions pas le gommer. Cette année, nous parvenons Ã* surcompenser ce handicap, car nous sommes parvenus Ã* être plus rapide de façon consistante.
And I do believe that there are better ways to express one's opinion than telling people to "shut up" as Rob Leupen is reported to say, especially when a sanctioning body is apparently "green-lighting" a system that formally contravenes the rules...

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Old 24 Jun 2014, 08:41 (Ref:3425778)   #1156
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And I do believe that there are better ways to express one's opinion than telling people to "shut up" as Rob Leupen is reported to say, especially when a sanctioning body is apparently "green-lighting" a system that formally contravenes the rules...
Would this be the same Rob Leupen of the same TMG that could not wait to whine and moan for a performance break at LM2013? Yes Rob, being hypocritical and insulting is indeed the right way to endear yourself to potential fans

And before the inevitable "blah blah Audi diesel blah blah Darth Ullrich," (which isn't my point but what better way to obfuscate the issue than changing the subject) I don't remember Audi telling anyone to "shut up". May I suggest Leupen takes his own advice.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 08:52 (Ref:3425787)   #1157
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Lack of class from Leupen there.

Toyota really seem to be hurting from this year's Le Mans. They're acting like a cornered cat.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 08:55 (Ref:3425788)   #1158
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Interestingly, in the French AutoHebdo magazine, Vasselon is reported to contend that Audi would still be advantaged by the current Appendix B figures...



And I do believe that there are better ways to express one's opinion than telling people to "shut up" as Rob Leupen is reported to say, especially when a sanctioning body is apparently "green-lighting" a system that formally contravenes the rules...
He didnt say they should or need to "shut up". He said if they complained Porsche and Toyota are faster based on their poor hybrid system, "we (porsche and toyota) would say Gentlemen, shut up." Reading the whole article and not just the sensational title is in order to understand the context. Why so sour?

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Old 24 Jun 2014, 08:58 (Ref:3425792)   #1159
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The context does not change his wording
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 09:08 (Ref:3425801)   #1160
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The context does not change his wording
"WE WOULD say"... thatd be the response of Porsche and Toyota if Audi cried about the rules being unfair because their relatively weak hybrid system they chose.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 09:48 (Ref:3425813)   #1161
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The context does not change his wording
It changes the inherent 'force' behind the words though.

It's going to get annoying very quickly btw (in fact it probably already has) if everytime Toyota say something people disagree with this whole non-issue of a flex wing is bought up. If they're allowed to run it that should be the end. It shouldn't be a bargaining tool or any BS like that. And this is from a Porsche fan.

Toyota should still be able to say what they feel, even if in the case the words are a bit strong.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 11:58 (Ref:3425869)   #1162
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I am not entirely sure that the "Toyota rear-wing controversy", "Winggate", or whichever designation one way want to use, is a non-issue. It will, one way or another, lead to some clarifications and/or rule changes. Time will tell.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 13:04 (Ref:3425904)   #1163
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Well, if Toyota are gonna tell Audi to get a better hybrid system, I'd suggest to Toyota to get a better engine instead of the old, outdated lump they have. The fact that they rely so much on the hybrid system and "trick" aero IMO shows that Toyota should've forked out the money for drivetrain/engine development (hell, looking at it, I'd ban the Toyota rotating wing on safety grounds, let alone movable aero).

Just like at LM2013, Toyota seem to be lobbying for more help from the ACO. I believe based on the first rounds and LM this year, they've had all the help that they need.

But by the same token, I'd agree that Audi haven't been in any way severely disadvantaged by the current regs, either. After all, it wasn't like Toyota in terms of laptime or long run performance was walking away from Audi at LM (much of the gap between the #7 and #2 was due to pace car stuff), and it was the winning Audi that had fastest race lap and fastest long run stint.

Audi and Toyota are engaged in the typical lobbying that has resulted from the ACO adopting the ALMS' 2006 BOP crap.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 18:01 (Ref:3425996)   #1164
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Well, if Toyota are gonna tell Audi to get a better hybrid system, I'd suggest to Toyota to get a better engine instead of the old, outdated lump they have. The fact that they rely so much on the hybrid system and "trick" aero IMO shows that Toyota should've forked out the money for drivetrain/engine development (hell, looking at it, I'd ban the Toyota rotating wing on safety grounds, let alone movable aero).

Just like at LM2013, Toyota seem to be lobbying for more help from the ACO. I believe based on the first rounds and LM this year, they've had all the help that they need.

But by the same token, I'd agree that Audi haven't been in any way severely disadvantaged by the current regs, either. After all, it wasn't like Toyota in terms of laptime or long run performance was walking away from Audi at LM (much of the gap between the #7 and #2 was due to pace car stuff), and it was the winning Audi that had fastest race lap and fastest long run stint.

Audi and Toyota are engaged in the typical lobbying that has resulted from the ACO adopting the ALMS' 2006 BOP crap.
I'd say toyota's engine is better than porsche's.The car was faster and just as reliable as the audi.It was the idiocy of Lapierre , and the misfortune of having a freak of a problem that stopped the #7, 30 seconds before it would have gone for repairs.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 18:14 (Ref:3426001)   #1165
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Okay, time to discuss something constructively...

The predictions were for the petrol cars to get 13.9 laps out of a tank. The 919s managed 14 (thought not all the time) while the TS040s stuck to 13. We never did see the ultimate pace of the Toyota, but is it correct to assume that TMG felt the speed was worth it over the extra lap? The Porsches were never running completely healthy either, but in the 14 lap stints sub 3:30 laps were rare.

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Old 24 Jun 2014, 19:31 (Ref:3426019)   #1166
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All the latest engine technology is here to make engine efficient under wider range of rpm and load. Toyota's vision of a hybrid is and always was to use simple engine in the sweet spot, if the demand for power is lower use the electric buffer.

In a race you basically need efficient WOT in high rpm, how hard is it to tune the NA port injected engine this way? What benefit would turbo bring other than more power? How do you avoid waste gate inefficiency? With MGU-H and less fuel in higher ERS class?
The great efficiency benefit of direct injection is lean burn under light load, when does that happen in a race? Direct injection can also produce more power, but with sacrificing efficiency (richer than stoich).

These are just a few points that I come with reading wikipedia, so may someone prove me wrong.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 21:16 (Ref:3426048)   #1167
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The turbo brings lower RPM power, which means you race the engine at lower RPM, which helps with internal friction, which brings overall efficiency up quite significantly. Everyone loves how a V8 NA sounds, but those will be things of the past very soon (if we continue to have fuel limitations).
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 21:30 (Ref:3426056)   #1168
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Their V8 is not as high revving this year as '12-13. They revved to 10k at least. This year its between 8-9k. If you can have a 40% efficient engine while still being V8 and high revving, why go the smaller turbo route thats more complex and probably heavier? This was talked about earlier in the thread with the super high compression ratio of 17:1.

Theres rumors of Porsche looking to do 8mj next year, and I bet Toyota are looking to do the same.
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Old 24 Jun 2014, 22:10 (Ref:3426061)   #1169
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The turbo brings lower RPM power, which means you race the engine at lower RPM, which helps with internal friction, which brings overall efficiency up quite significantly. Everyone loves how a V8 NA sounds, but those will be things of the past very soon (if we continue to have fuel limitations).
That's the only benefit (in WOT racing conditions anyway), but it also increases exhaust backpressure exponentially, and the compression of the intake charge increases it's temperature over what a NA engine would have even with an intercooler, limiting how high of CR you can run.And then there's also the cost, complexion and reliability that the turbo brings.Last but not least as a huge car and motorsport fan i appreciate the noise that NA engines make.IMHO opinion right now there's no need for turbos in petrol cars, unless you are trying to make huge amount of power from a engine with a reasonable displacement
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Old 25 Jun 2014, 00:07 (Ref:3426094)   #1170
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Watch what will happen in the next few years. This is year one and everyone brought what they believed in. As the years go by and IF efficiency is still mandated, you will see how everyone will move towards 0,5L per cylinder turbocharged petrol, low revving engines, with the V6 being the best compromise.
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Old 25 Jun 2014, 05:29 (Ref:3426153)   #1171
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Watch what will happen in the next few years. This is year one and everyone brought what they believed in. As the years go by and IF efficiency is still mandated, you will see how everyone will move towards 0,5L per cylinder turbocharged petrol, low revving engines, with the V6 being the best compromise.
Not everyone thinks like BMW
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Old 25 Jun 2014, 07:05 (Ref:3426177)   #1172
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Some words from DSC about the "Wing Gate"

More seriously, it is apparently confirmed that the electrical fire that finished the race of the #7 car originated around the connectors for the FIA data logger (confirmed by a Toyota Racing source according to DSC). The team is understood to bear the responsibility for ensuring that the installation of the data logger was secure and safe. This is consistent with Vasselon's comments in the AutoHebdo magazine. No FIA conspiracy then
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Old 25 Jun 2014, 07:29 (Ref:3426188)   #1173
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Their V8 is not as high revving this year as '12-13. They revved to 10k at least. This year its between 8-9k. If you can have a 40% efficient engine while still being V8 and high revving, why go the smaller turbo route thats more complex and probably heavier? This was talked about earlier in the thread with the super high compression ratio of 17:1.

Theres rumors of Porsche looking to do 8mj next year, and I bet Toyota are looking to do the same.
Toyota is looking for the 8MJ category.
John Litjens mentioned during the Eurosport Germany LM broadcast that they are already working on the new car and one of their main focus is looking for a further weight reduction which should allow them to race in the 8MJ category. Toyota Japan is also looking if they can use a combination of supercapacitors and batteries.
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Old 25 Jun 2014, 08:06 (Ref:3426209)   #1174
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Toyota is looking for the 8MJ category.
John Litjens mentioned during the Eurosport Germany LM broadcast that they are already working on the new car and one of their main focus is looking for a further weight reduction which should allow them to race in the 8MJ category. Toyota Japan is also looking if they can use a combination of supercapacitors and batteries.
Great info. Thanks for sharing that. I know they have serious battery tech going on in Japan and in Cologne. You dont get to hear all that info on the english broadcasts. One thing I look forward to is the gains in the hybrid department. And they just showed a hydrogen fcv yesterday as well.
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Old 25 Jun 2014, 10:50 (Ref:3426258)   #1175
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Shots fired...
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