[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by peebee2

The point was that you can’t just copy something from another car, like the sidepods etc. The integration into your total package is much more important than that.

Thus Merc copying what they can see of the RB floor/pods just won’t work for them without an enormous amount of work - which will take time. A lot of time.

[HDTVKSS]

The big issue will be after all this bullish talk if they roll out these new side pods and it goes slower... AM tried to copy the RBR concept last year mid season and it didnt exactly set the world on fire....

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Those 142 floors exist in the virtual realm, there are probably only slight tweaks between each iteration.

I've heard that they often used to 3D print several dozen iterations of a particular part and if the first few didn't show promise,the entire batch was binned.Which made me wonder if there might have been combinations of those discarded parts that would have worked better than the chosen solution at each of several stages.I suppose we shall never know,but it does make me wonder if a potential championship winner found it's way to the skip and I suppose the waste of material,time and energy is quite sad too.

[peebee2]

I could have been clearer I suppose. 142 designs, 142 CFD tested, it was something around 20 scale built and run in the tunnel, 2 built and put on car.

[S griffin]

It makes sense them trying out different design techniques, especially on CFD. You do wonder how Merc got it so wrong. However I'm sure they will recover in time

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

The big issue will be after all this bullish talk if they roll out these new side pods and it goes slower... AM tried to copy the RBR concept last year mid season and it didnt exactly set the world on fire....

it didn't, but it was a marked improvement on their early season form and now look at them

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Thus Merc copying what they can see of the RB floor/pods just won’t work for them without an enormous amount of work - which will take time. A lot of time.

With all sorts of legitimately wondering... How did Aston pull this off in implementing the red bull side pods? Not sure if I've read stories incorrectly but it's sounded like AM has basically incorporated RB concepts best and wound up with Alonso placing as expected the last two races.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

With all sorts of legitimately wondering... How did Aston pull this off in implementing the red bull side pods? Not sure if I've read stories incorrectly but it's sounded like AM has basically incorporated RB concepts best and wound up with Alonso placing as expected the last two races.

They hired Newey’s right hand man, that’s how.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

How did Aston pull this off in implementing the red bull side pods? Not sure if I've read stories incorrectly but it's sounded like AM has basically incorporated RB concepts best and wound up with Alonso placing as expected the last two races.

It's simple, the Aston Martin is a well-designed car: it has good downforce, good handling: it's consistent, it's predictable, it's "lovely to drive" as Alonso says himself. It's a little bit draggy compared to Red Bull, but not too bad.

The Mercedes is not that much slower, however by the team and drivers own admission it lacks downforce and the handling isn't that great (the rear end is unstable in medium and high speed corners, while their tyre wear advantage from 2022 seems to have disappeared).

Saying the Aston Martin's "Red Bull" sidepods are the key to its speed is selling it short, it's a well designed car in every area -- in any case, the Aston Martin's sidepods are more similar to the 2022 Alpine than the 2022 Red Bull anyway!

[By well designed, its the usual things: the centre of pressure is consistent there are no weird balance shifts etc, the suspension handles the tyres well and so on.]

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

RB have Newey and thus an access to a level of knowledge and experience other teams dont have.

Newey was allowed to go away and design the Aston Martin Valkyrie for Red Bull Technologies. A car that utilises technology that just so happened to be what the new F1 technical regulations are about. They even had Max Verstappen testing it at Silverstone.

I don't think it's a huge coincidence that the team that developed a ground effect car in its "spare" time has produced the best ground effect car.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Newey was allowed to go away and design the Aston Martin Valkyrie for Red Bull Technologies. A car that utilises technology that just so happened to be what the new F1 technical regulations are about.

Ah. This would also explain Aston Martin's success.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by dsg

Ah. This would also explain Aston Martin's success.

That and also the AMF1 recruitment this time last year of Dan Fallows, in effect from a position of Newey's sidekick at Red Bull... I think officially Fallows was the Aerodynamics Team Leader of Red Bull back in 2006 to Aero Chief by the time he left last year. Fallows is now Chief Technical Officer at AMF1.

So little surprise it has shall we call them, RB characteristics.

[S griffin]

Yes, I think Fallows deserves credit for the RBRs he's created. It wasn't just down to Newey. And now he's doing his magic on the AMs

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by E.B

That and also the AMF1 recruitment this time last year of Dan Fallows, in effect from a position of Newey's sidekick at Red Bull... I think officially Fallows was the Aerodynamics Team Leader of Red Bull back in 2006 to Aero Chief by the time he left last year. Fallows is now Chief Technical Officer at AMF1.

So little surprise it has shall we call them, RB characteristics.

Or DNA?

[chillibowl]

has Fallows been there long enough though to have affected the design of this year's AM? their ability to develop over the season tho will be telling and then to see how much of this years car carries over to next season?

[ChrisA]

Mercedes could be back sooner than you think, if there is any truth that Newey might be going to Merc. He has been seen looking at their car.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Mercedes could be back sooner than you think, if there is any truth that Newey might be going to Merc. He has been seen looking at their car.

Damon Hill sees Newey looking at the Mercedes front wing and comes to the inescapable conclusion that... Newey is looking to move to Mercedes!



Wouldn't the more obvious answer be that he is just looking at competitor cars to see what ideas they have come up with? Someone needs to find and post the no doubt dozens and dozens of photos of Newey taking a peek at other cars on the grid.

Richard

[Richard C]

Newey clearly moving to AM to soak up that Stroll money...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozviY0yQE0E

As to Newey's future. Who knows. Noise about him stepping back has been going on for awhile. I can imagine he is bored with F1. That he doesn't have much left to prove. And that new challenges are likely found outside of F1. I would be shocked if he moves to another F1 team.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Newey clearly moving to AM to soak up that Stroll money...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozviY0yQE0E

As to Newey's future. Who knows. Noise about him stepping back has been going on for awhile. I can imagine he is bored with F1. That he doesn't have much left to prove. And that new challenges are likely found outside of F1. I would be shocked if he moves to another F1 team.

Richard

He took a step back from F1 in 2015, to head up Red Bull Advanced Technologies and design the Ben Ainslie Racing Ltd, America's Cup boat.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He took a step back from F1 in 2015, to head up Red Bull Advanced Technologies and design the Ben Ainslie Racing Ltd, America's Cup boat.

Right. None of this is new. When Newey was a free agent circa 2014 it seemed that Red Bull was able to keep him tied up by offering him not just money, but options outside of F1. If I remember correctly, there was lots of talk 2015+ about how much Newey was actually involved with the F1 side vs. his other projects. That some speculation was that it was less about needing Newey for the team, but rather to keep him away from other teams (I think it was two birds and one stone as they wanted him AND having him kept him out of the hands of other teams). I seem to remember talk about Newey no longer attending races (or having a limited schedule of attending) as evidence of his reduced participation.

I assume that Newey's time devoted to the F1 side has been variable up/down depending upon what else he has going on. I have no idea what all he might be doing these days (Is he still participating in America's Cup?). But they say his contract is up this year? So the question is.. What does Newey want? I can fully buy in that he wants "A new challenge". I have a hard timing thinking that would be bringing another F1 team to the front. Because from his perspective, what would a new team provide (mentally) that Red Bull can't from an F1 perspective. I doubt it's that RBR is say "no" to his ideas and the only way to realize them is elsewhere? I would assume that this is going to again be a question of what someone can offer him outside of F1.

I can try to put myself in his shoes, but it would be me projecting my thoughts onto him. And if I do that, I think "why might I want to go to another team?" The thing that would come to my mind is not to help a giant like Mercedes or Ferrari. But to help a small team like Williams. Do it for the fun and not the money. Do it as an F1 swan song. Do it before leaving the sport to do stuff totally away from F1.

Back to reality...

Given the long relationship with Red Bull, they should be in the position to understand his wants/needs more than anyone. The team is winning and winning is fun. So he might be motivated to stay. So I expect it's their game to lose at this point. And... Newey is in an excellent negotiating position. All of this speculation can do nothing by help reinforce his hand.

But who knows other than Newey himself? This is ALL speculation. Including the Mercedes move based upon Newey looking at the Mercedes car?

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Right.

None of this is new.....
Back to reality...

Given the long relationship with Red Bull, they should be in the position to understand his wants/needs more than anyone. The team is winning and winning is fun. So he might be motivated to stay. So I expect it's their game to lose at this point. And... Newey is in an excellent negotiating position. All of this speculation can do nothing by help reinforce his hand.

But who knows other than Newey himself? This is ALL speculation. Including the Mercedes move based upon Newey looking at the Mercedes car?

Richard

I totally agree Richard.
Miles of speculation but really Newey will make up his own mind.
He is the best aero guy in F1, with experience from a career in March Indy cars in CART days to the present.
He has enough money.
If he wants a challenge away from RBR he will decide what it is and when.
RBR would rather keep him away from other teams then let him loose with the opposition.

[chillibowl]

Given the cap rules and remuneration of top personnel excluded…would be a lot of effort and cost to keep someone on at that level and not have them contributing massively no?

[Mike Harte]

Just a few things that I seem to recall about Newey's past and present.

Firstly, don't forget that he has already worked for both Williams and then McLaren. During his latter years working under Ron Dennis, there was an ongoing saga over whether he was going to leave or not, with assurances given and not then kept.

Suddenly, Red Bull announced that Newey would be joining them at the beginning of the new year, and it transpired that the financial inducement was one that couldn't be ignored or not taken up.

Then, about 8 or 9 years ago, Newey started to get itchy feet again and so began some very serious financial and technical talks with the upper echelon at RBR, resulting, or so I believe, Newey becoming an independent contractor (maybe causing Red Bull to have problems filing their accounts with the FIA?) but with a long dated contract with RBR. This permitted him to carry out work outside F1, such as the America's Cup and Aston Martin road car. He also creates cars for historic racing such as a GT40 and an E-Type, which he sometimes raced himself, although I very much doubt that they would meet the strict FIA regulations that some race organisers deem to be required.

Anyway, he is both getting on in years but also very much his own man. He will end up doing what he wants and that might be going elsewhere for a challenge - something he has always cherished - or maybe he will just potter about in his garden.

[Aysedasi]

I wonder how aerodynamic his garden is......?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I wonder how aerodynamic his garden is......?

Maybe I need to check his book