Circuit Des Ducs

[Hickey]

Afternoon,

I have just seen that the Austrian RX circuit has added a joker lap to be eligible for the 2010 ERC (they best not get Lydden's slot!!!).

I just wondered if Essay/Circuit-Des-Ducs would have such improvements forced upon them before 2009 (if they have not already) as from the pics I have seen, it does not have a Joker lap yet?

Cheers
Adam

[rx-guru]

Greinbach in Austria needs a Joker Lap section now as their ERC 2010 candidate event will be in 2009.
The track at Melk in Austria was homologated before January 1 2009, therefore they do not need a Joker Lap section before 2013.

See chapters 3 and 5, each points 6 here (copy&paste please): http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/1507E143660A671EC1257543005C12DB/$FILE/Annexe%20M%202009.pdf

6. Joker lap
Obligatory (applicable to new or renewed
homologated circuits from 1.1.2009),
Characteristics:
Length: must be such that the time needed to
cover a lap is at least 2 seconds longer than the
best lap time achieved in Division 1. at least 2 sec
longer than the time needed for the replaced
distance of the circuit.
Width: minimum 10 m, maximum 12 m.
The entry and the exit cannot be on the racing line.
A safety protection, to separate the two roads,
must be in place. At the exit it must be possible for
the cars to have the same speed as on the
traditional circuit.
A marshals’ post will be put in place if judged
necessary for safety reasons.
An Approval by of the FIA circuit safety inspector
is required.

6. Validity of the track licence
The FIA track licence is valid for a period of 3 years
plus the current year. After that, the circuit must be
re-inspected.

For Essay I do not know anything about their current track homologation and how long it is valid.

[PhergAthor]

The Greinbach track will add a jokerlap to regain its spot on the calender. It will not be Lyddens spot but Melks spot. Melk is on this years calender but has a restricted number of racedays.

I don't think Circuit de Ducs will be forced to make a jokerlap, but I do think that a jokerlap will be a requirement to (re)gain a spot on the calender. But France has 9 or 10 RX-circuits, 3 of them with a jokerlap.

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by PhergAthor

The Greinbach track will add a jokerlap to regain its spot on the calender. It will not be Lyddens spot but Melks spot. Melk is on this years calender but has a restricted number of racedays.

I don't think Circuit de Ducs will be forced to make a jokerlap, but I do think that a jokerlap will be a requirement to (re)gain a spot on the calender. But France has 9 or 10 RX-circuits, 3 of them with a jokerlap.

"It will not be Lyddens spot but Melks spot."
Not quite correct. The 10 best candidate events of the running year will be those who get an ERC round for 2010, only one track per country of course, but no matter where. Every 2009 ERC round is a candidate as well as those non-ERC events in 2009 that try to join the ERC for 2010.

About Essay: From latest 2013 on there will be no tracks in the ERC any longer without a Joker Lap section, – if the current FIA rules remain…

[WJM]

Essay will begin building the jokerlap section right after the last Rallycross for the French Championship in October. It will be ready before the 2010 season.
The French association has already decided that their 2010 ERC round will be at Kerlabo.
The only ERC tracks that currently do not have a jokerlap are Essay, Melk, Buxtehude and Sosnova. With Essay having one in 2010, Melk perhaps switching with Greinbach and Germany being shaky every year, this season might be one of the last possibilities to see "real" rallycross

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by WJM

The French association has already decided that their 2010 ERC round will be at Kerlabo.

It’s rather this way:
The French association has already decided that their 2010 ERC round candidate will be Kerlabo.
Coz the FIA ORC will take the decission where the ten 2010 ERC rounds will be.

[WJM]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

It’s rather this way:
The French association has already decided that their 2010 ERC round candidate will be Kerlabo.
Coz the FIA ORC will take the decission where the ten 2010 ERC rounds will be.

Like they would ever dare to skip France or Sweden!
When, if ever, are we going to know which tracks will be candidates for 2010?

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by WJM

Like they would ever dare to skip France or Sweden!

No country or track is 100% sure of getting an ERC round any longer.

Originally Posted by WJM

When, if ever, are we going to know which tracks will be candidates for 2010?

I do not know if the FIA ORC has already received candidate applications yet. But I guess Greinbach, Kerlabo, Momarken or Gardermoen, Lousada, Valkenswaard, a Finnish track and who knows who (Sturup in Sweden?) will be on the candidate list sooner or later, to be judged against the remaining 2009 ERC rounds.

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by WJM

The only ERC tracks that currently do not have a jokerlap are Essay, Melk, Buxtehude and Sosnova. With Essay having one in 2010, Melk perhaps switching with Greinbach and Germany being shaky every year, this season might be one of the last possibilities to see "real" rallycross

Melk has a reasonable chance doing the 2011 Austrian ERC round possibly with Joker Lap, but still without a starting grid outside the actual track, which will be quite a problem for them from 2013 on.

[The Eye]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

No country or track is 100% sure of getting an ERC round any longer.

Not sure but I think u are breaking the law if u say this in Sweden

[The Eye]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

I do not know if the FIA ORC has already received candidate applications yet. But I guess Greinbach, Kerlabo, Momarken or Gardermoen, Lousada, Valkenswaard, a Finnish track and who knows who (Sturup in Sweden?) will be on the candidate list sooner or later, to be judged against the remaining 2009 ERC rounds.

Sturup??? What makes you think that? They were supposed to host the “Extreme SM” but had to hand it over to Tomelilla. They will host a round of “Lilla SM” but they are not ready to be a candidate race for the ERC. Not for years. The only track crazy/brave enough to challenge Höljes right now is Kalix.

[rx-guru]

@ The Eye: Not for years?

Especially for Sturup I used the "sooner or later". But with former FIA ORC President Börje Jönsson (the predecessor of Andy Lasure) involved it could be rather sooner than later I guess.

http://www.motorsportivarmland.nu/rc009.htm#090123sn
http://www.sbf.se/artikel/3881

[schanche]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

Melk has a reasonable chance doing the 2011 Austrian ERC round possibly with Joker Lap, but still without a starting grid outside the actual track, which will be quite a problem for them from 2013 on.

Starting grid on the outside so what's the score with Lydden then is this not a requirement already most circuits on the tour have it already.

[rx-guru]

4. Starts
There must be at least 100 m of straight from the
starting line to the first bend. The starting grid,
situated outside of the track (applicable to new or
renewed homologated circuits from 1.1.2009), will
have a uniform surface of asphalt, tarmac, or
concrete, this to continue for at least 30 metres
after the starting line. The width of the track at the
start line (minimum 14.50 metres) will be
maintained up to and through the first bend, which
must have a maximum radius of 25 metres and
result in a change of direction of at least 45°;
measurements will be calculated from the
centreline of the course.

Starting grid on the outside does mean on the outside of that track the RX competitors use. At Lydden it was always there, but not at eg. Mondello, Fuglau and not anymore with the new Wachauring at Melk. But Melk does not need it before 2013. However, there is no space to do it down there AFAIK.

Apropos, according to the updated FIA rules of December 12 2008 a RX circuit must be 950 to 1400 Metres long now, while the old rules claimed 800 to 2000 Metres. AFAIK Buxtehude is 941 or 945 Metres and Lydden is 1400 Metres long. I wonder why the FIA ORC is making the rules that cramped when there is no real need to do so…

[WJM]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

Apropos, according to the updated FIA rules of December 12 2008 a RX circuit must be 950 to 1400 Metres long now, while the old rules claimed 800 to 2000 Metres. AFAIK Buxtehude is 941 or 945 Metres and Lydden is 1400 Metres long. I wonder why the FIA ORC is making the rules that cramped when there is no real need to do so…

The ERA site has Buxtehude at 945m and Lydden Hill at 1300m. I suppose this basicly means that after the current homologation runs out in 2011(?) the Estering will be lost forever for the ERC.
It also excludes Momarken from ever returning, as it's only 850m or so.

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by WJM

The ERA site has Buxtehude at 945m and Lydden Hill at 1300m. I suppose this basicly means that after the current homologation runs out in 2011(?) the Estering will be lost forever for the ERC.
It also excludes Momarken from ever returning, as it's only 850m or so.

I do not think that 5 Metres could be a problem, but I don’t know why the ACN is not simply changing their track info from 945 to 950… Who takes care and checks all the tracks about this rules, the FIA ORC…? With all the additional concrete put on the Duivelsbergcircuit over the last couple of years I guess there is more than 70% sealed surface these days, although the rules allow just 60%… Why is Lydden all in a sudden 1300 Metres long I don’t know, for many a year the figure given by TEAC was 1400 (also okay with the current rules). But if Momarken would have no length problem for the next track homologation I would be very surprised.

[WJM]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

I do not think that 5 Metres could be a problem, but I don’t know why the ACN is not simply changing their track info from 945 to 950… Who takes care and checks all the tracks about this rules, the FIA ORC…? With all the additional concrete put on the Duivelsbergcircuit over the last couple of years I guess there is more than 70% sealed surface these days, although the rules allow just 60%… Why is Lydden all in a sudden 1300 Metres long I don’t know, for many a year the figure given by TEAC was 1400 (also okay with the current rules). But if Momarken would have no length problem for the next track homologation I would be very surprised.

Yes I suppose they could mix some 5 metres into it. They also need a jokerlap though. Another track that is not 950m is Lousada.

The Duivelsbergcircuit does not comply with so many regulations. The amount of gravel as you mentioned.
But also this regarding the jokerlap:

The entry and the exit cannot be on the racing line.
A safety protection, to separate the two roads,
must be in place. At the exit it must be possible for
the cars to have the same speed as on the
traditional circuit.

7. Protection between loops of the track:
If two sectors of the track are situated within less
than 25 m of one another, there must be some
form of protection to prevent a competing car
reaching the neighbouring part of the track.
Suitable markings: vertical earth banks, guardrails,
protective fences, etc. Kerbs in accordance with
FIA specifications are recommended for asphalt
sections.

Or what about this...:

5.4 The distance between the protective
constructions and the spectator fence must be at
least 3 m. If the difference in levels between the
track and the public is more than 2.5 m, however,
and the bank or wall is vertical, no further
protection is needed. The spectators must never
be at a level lower than the track.