Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10 Jan 2018, 11:39 (Ref:3791703)   #1026
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Quote:
Originally Posted by BertMk2 View Post
There aren't as many 'pay drivers' on the grid as you might think - if you look at who's on the grid then you get the following:

Red Bull graduates - Vettel, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Sainz, Gasly, Hartley
Mercedes graduates - Ocon
Mclaren graduates - Hamilton, VanDoorne, Magnussen (could be argued Hamilton is a Mercedes graduate)
Ferrari graduates - LeClerc

That leaves:
Raikkonen
Bottas
Perez
Hulkenburg
Alonso
Grosjean
Ericsson
Stroll
A.N.Other Williams driver

Of those the drivers that bring big budgets are Ericsson, Stroll, Perez and A.N.Other. The others may bring budget but that's not what they're known for.
Joking? Magnussen paid millions, as did others in your list.
peebee2 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2018, 11:40 (Ref:3791704)   #1027
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Niki Lauda had to use a bank loan to get into F1 quicker and look what happened
LOL, you do realise the bank was the family business??
peebee2 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2018, 12:01 (Ref:3791707)   #1028
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,030
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
LOL, you do realise the bank was the family business??
Not strictly true. My understanding is Niki did borrow money from an Austrian bank of which his Grandfather was I believe a shareholder, using his life insurance as collateral. That got him through the March years, but a family argument over his motor racing ended any family involvement and his Grandfather had the loan withdrawn. Niki broke all contact with his Grandfather, and then took a separate loan (I believe from another bank) to cover his payments at BRM. He covered payments initially from start monies from Touring Cars and Sports cars, but owed money to BRM when Ferrari took Lauda on. With money from Ferrari Niki was able to clear the second loan.
E.B is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2018, 12:36 (Ref:3791713)   #1029
RWill2073
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!
I think there is a difference between a driver who can bring sponsorship because they're either a rising star or talented and/or they're marketable for a company and a "pay" driver like stroll or Perez, who bring money because of family or government-backed businesses wanting a driver from their country on the grid or something like that.

If you look at it in other sports, if a lesser funded team brought in players who were not as good because they took a lot less money because they were rich, that would be a "pay" player. But a baseball player like mike trout, or football player like tom Brady or nba player like lebron james all have sponsors, but it's because they're real good and marketable. LeBron james wasn't drafted first solely because he was marketable, but because he was great. But he was sponsored before being drafted (I think).

The distinction comes somewhere along the lines of: did you get the opportunity because of money or talent? Would Perez have gotten a shot without money? I don't know, but kinda doubt it. Stroll definitely wouldn't have. Kvyat? Others that have sponsors likely still would have though, based on talent.
RWill2073 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2018, 13:08 (Ref:3791720)   #1030
BertMk2
Race Official
Veteran
 
BertMk2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
United Kingdom
Nr Maidstone, Kent
Posts: 10,270
BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
Joking? Magnussen paid millions, as did others in your list.
See below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
I think there is a difference between a driver who can bring sponsorship because they're either a rising star or talented and/or they're marketable for a company and a "pay" driver like stroll or Perez, who bring money because of family or government-backed businesses wanting a driver from their country on the grid or something like that.
Yes those drivers brought money - but not enough to fully fund a seat or team. Stroll has enough cash to buy a seat at Williams (after spending a year with a dedicated test team from Williams running him in an old car). Some personal sponsors may help smooth the passage into a seat but it's very different from having the financial clout to buy a seat/team (Stroll, Perez, Ericsson).
BertMk2 is online now  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2018, 13:22 (Ref:3791724)   #1031
broadrun96
Veteran
 
broadrun96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 11,208
broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BertMk2 View Post
See below:



Yes those drivers brought money - but not enough to fully fund a seat or team. Stroll has enough cash to buy a seat at Williams (after spending a year with a dedicated test team from Williams running him in an old car). Some personal sponsors may help smooth the passage into a seat but it's very different from having the financial clout to buy a seat/team (Stroll, Perez, Ericsson).
And I think there lies one of the challenges, what percentage is required before a sponsored driver becomes a pay driver. If he brings 5% of the budget you can't really say he's a pay driver, paying maybe. But if a driver brings 60-75%, that's a whole different level.

Well at least to me. But my opinion is worth about as much as well air, and at times can stink just as much.
broadrun96 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2018, 13:41 (Ref:3791729)   #1032
Mike Harte
Veteran
 
Mike Harte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
United Kingdom
W. Yorkshire
Posts: 5,468
Mike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Surely it's easy to differentiate between the two classes of pilots.

One is the driver who is paid a sum to sit in a race car (no matter where that money comes from), whilst the other has to pay the team to allow his bum in the seat.
Mike Harte is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2018, 16:22 (Ref:3791750)   #1033
djinvicta
Veteran
 
djinvicta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Wales
Mojacar Southern Spain
Posts: 2,303
djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!djinvicta has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
That's the thing, while they have been a few pay drivers in recent seasons they are at least competent enough for F1, not like the likes of Inoue, Lavaggi and Deletraz. So the quality is still there
Agreed, and also (as Murray Walker once said), the cars years ago were undriveable with a gear stick, one handed, without talent.

Mike Harte: Your definition above my post. How true. Simple..

Last edited by djinvicta; 10 Jan 2018 at 16:23. Reason: Added
djinvicta is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2018, 21:42 (Ref:3791845)   #1034
Razzzor
Veteran
 
Razzzor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
New Zealand
New Zealand
Posts: 1,157
Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
A pay driver isn't really just someone who just contributes some of the green for their drive. It's more referred to as a driver where the amount he pays outweights his results. In other words if he wasn't paying, he wouldn't be on the grid. In that respect you can't say Schumacher and Alonso are former pay drivers. They were always going to F1.

Of the current grid, most of the drivers there have their drive on merit. Only Ericsson is the obvious choice of pay driver, he's never had any significant results in his career and there's no way he'd be on the grid without money.

Even Lance Stroll you could say he did win the F3 title, the same title Verstappen won. Without the deep pockets he probably would have moved across to F2 and would still be competing there, but certainly may still have made it to F1. If he got the results in F2 then he may have moved to Williams this year anyway. He can't have done worse than the now confirmed Sirotkin.

Perez could be a driver that wouldn't have his seat in F1 without the money. His results at McLaren may have seen the end of his career. But he deserves his seat still as his results over the last few years have been good enough.

But yeah the way I see it only Ericsson, Stroll and Sirotkin are the only true pay drivers this year. Although I do think Sirotkin is one of the stronger F2 drivers in the last couple of years. His creds took a dip 2016 after he replaced Vandoorne and failed to live up to expectations and what Stoff did in that car. But he did better than Albon and Matsushita a year later.
Razzzor is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2018, 23:00 (Ref:3791862)   #1035
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
I wouldn’t be 100% sure about even TGF. If Tic-Tac hadn’t stumped up the big money who knows what would have happened.

There are so many more drivers only on even the current and very recent grid because of the funding they bring, you might be very surprised. But they don’t generally get so noticed because they are seen as commercial, unlike the mega-Can dollars.

Anyway, what is this F3 title Verstappen won? Can’t remember that!
peebee2 is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Jan 2018, 00:10 (Ref:3791868)   #1036
Skam85
Veteran
 
Skam85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Wherever the next race is
Posts: 2,812
Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!
The "now confirmed" Sirotkin? Have I missed something?
Skam85 is offline  
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud.
Quote
Old 11 Jan 2018, 00:17 (Ref:3791869)   #1037
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 16,760
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Even Lance Stroll you could say he did win the F3 title, the same title Verstappen won.
sorry to be that guy, but delete verstappen, insert ocon. so they even did it in the same team
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 11 Jan 2018, 02:18 (Ref:3791886)   #1038
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,030
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skam85 View Post
The "now confirmed" Sirotkin? Have I missed something?
I must have missed that one too.... I knew he was favourite and 99% but that is the last I heard. Mr Google appears to have missed it too.
E.B is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Jan 2018, 05:12 (Ref:3791900)   #1039
F1Guy
Veteran
 
F1Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Antarctica
Driving dangerously
Posts: 1,406
F1Guy User has been fined for unsportsmanlike behaviour!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
In that respect you can't say Schumacher and Alonso are former pay drivers.
You need to do your homework. Get yourself a library card and do a lot more research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Even Lance Stroll you could say he did win the F3 title, the same title Verstappen won.
Again, more homework needs to be done here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
the now confirmed Sirotkin.
Guessing the answers to your homework is not the best way to succeed.
F1Guy is offline  
__________________
When did I do dangerous driving???
Quote
Old 11 Jan 2018, 18:01 (Ref:3792076)   #1040
RWill2073
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
You need to do your homework. Get yourself a library card and do a lot more research.


Again, more homework needs to be done here.


Guessing the answers to your homework is not the best way to succeed.
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e349477...6-fff032b2605e
RWill2073 is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2018, 08:20 (Ref:3792220)   #1041
Razzzor
Veteran
 
Razzzor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
New Zealand
New Zealand
Posts: 1,157
Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Oh haha totally forgot Verstappen never even won that title. Funny how your memory makes up a completely different story to what actually happened, because it would be just so bizarre and unbelievable that the guy that came 3rd in F3 in only his 2nd year of car racing, gets bought up to F1.

Re Sirotkin, heck I thought it was confirmed but looks like gpfans.com has done it again with false news. See https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4...looked-kubica/

And previous day a sirotkin confirmed post. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the case though, just wait a couple more days I bet sirotkin will be in. We just haven't had the official announcement yet so the big news broadcasters are holding off.
Razzzor is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2018, 09:15 (Ref:3792229)   #1042
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 16,760
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Oh haha totally forgot Verstappen never even won that title. Funny how your memory makes up a completely different story to what actually happened, because it would be just so bizarre and unbelievable that the guy that came 3rd in F3 in only his 2nd year of car racing, gets bought up to F1.
yeah, the whole thing was very “wtf”, but they were probably right to do it on reflection. he coped fine. it’s funny, because whilst a lot of people at the time were saying verstappen was a hero, there were plenty suggesting that ocon was the better driver. but he switched to cars far earlier - iirc because of his height?
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2018, 10:57 (Ref:3792247)   #1043
Razzzor
Veteran
 
Razzzor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
New Zealand
New Zealand
Posts: 1,157
Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Yeah he certainly did. 99/100 drivers probably wouldn't have, but Verstappen is a special talent.

It's funny to look back over those junior categories because in 10 years time when the Hamiltons, Vettels, Alonsos are retired we could easily see Ocon and Verstappen the creme de la creme of F1 with titles among them. Probably still with Merc and RB.
Razzzor is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2018, 18:25 (Ref:3792330)   #1044
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Oh haha totally forgot Verstappen never even won that title. Funny how your memory makes up a completely different story to what actually happened, because it would be just so bizarre and unbelievable that the guy that came 3rd in F3 in only his 2nd year of car racing, gets bought up to F1.
What did he race in his first year again? #homework
peebee2 is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2018, 19:09 (Ref:3792337)   #1045
MaskedRacer
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,955
MaskedRacer User has been fined for unsportsmanlike behaviour!
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...for-f1-995197/

No American ready for F1? Perhaps but the article is looking at just Indycar. Look at sportscars too. I think Ricky Taylor should be getting some F1 buzz.
MaskedRacer is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2018, 23:34 (Ref:3792388)   #1046
Razzzor
Veteran
 
Razzzor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
New Zealand
New Zealand
Posts: 1,157
Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
What did he race in his first year again? #homework
ahh #whocares

Last edited by Razzzor; 12 Jan 2018 at 23:49.
Razzzor is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2018, 23:39 (Ref:3792389)   #1047
Razzzor
Veteran
 
Razzzor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
New Zealand
New Zealand
Posts: 1,157
Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaskedRacer View Post
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...for-f1-995197/

No American ready for F1? Perhaps but the article is looking at just Indycar. Look at sportscars too. I think Ricky Taylor should be getting some F1 buzz.
Someone put it nicely on that post, why would Rossi or Newgarden even want to join F1 to struggle for points finishes while they have an opportunity to win any race in Indycar, compete for the title and Indy 500. If I were Josef I wouldn't want to join Haas to finish 10th either while I'm in the dominant car in Indycar.
Razzzor is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Jan 2018, 11:40 (Ref:3792441)   #1048
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
But now that Josef has won the title in Indycars, there's no reason why he can't give F1 a try. I think they underestimate him, he would be good enough for F1 anyday
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 13 Jan 2018, 13:06 (Ref:3792453)   #1049
RWill2073
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Someone put it nicely on that post, why would Rossi or Newgarden even want to join F1 to struggle for points finishes while they have an opportunity to win any race in Indycar, compete for the title and Indy 500. If I were Josef I wouldn't want to join Haas to finish 10th either while I'm in the dominant car in Indycar.
And this just goes to show the f1 grid is not head and shoulders above other grids as far as talent. There are plenty of drivers that could replace half the f1 grid and be an upgrade.
RWill2073 is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Jan 2018, 06:00 (Ref:3792614)   #1050
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
And this just goes to show the f1 grid is not head and shoulders above other grids as far as talent. There are plenty of drivers that could replace half the f1 grid and be an upgrade.
With one leading driver from one team having any realistic chance of winning a Grand Prix, 2 other teams having a small outside chance of winning a race when something goes wrong, and the rest of the grid made up of the rich and privileged who have bought their seats, F1 is beginning to look like sheltered employment.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2018 VASC Silly Season (with POLL) GTRMagic Australasian Touring Cars. 2074 19 Oct 2018 05:49
[WEC] BMW confirmed in GTE in 2018 AkioAsakura95 ACO Regulated Series 264 13 Sep 2017 16:52
Hockenheim secures new deal until 2018 jab Formula One 13 2 Oct 2009 00:25
The "silly" season just isn't "silly" any more Tristan Formula One 36 31 Jul 2001 02:50


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.