Bernie

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Things are not going to plan for Mr Ecclestone currently.

Apart from the alleged charge in Brazil over the gun issue, it has just been announced that HMRC is to be charge him in the UK for fraud by misrepresentation. This is alleged to be as a result of him not declaring assets, believed to be in excess of £400 million, held overseas.

See: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/62119689

Maybe he can move to Russia where Putin can protect him.

I had a relative who over most of his adult life hid things from his family and played by his own rules (affairs, etc.) But as he got older, both what was maybe considered "acceptable" ("boys will be boys" line of thinking) changed as well as he just wasn't as quick mentally and started to slip up on the lies. And he found he just wasn't able to keep his "activities" hidden as much as he did in the past. He was no longer able to juggle all the balls he had in the air and it all came crashing down.

I wonder if Bernie is going through the same.

Richard

[Greem]

I'm alright with hearing about Bernie's legal antics.

I'm not alright with hearing anything about Bernie's balls being juggled. Nobody needs that.

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Maybe he can move to Russia where Putin can protect him.

I had a relative who over most of his adult life hid things from his family and played by his own rules (affairs, etc.) But as he got older, both what was maybe considered "acceptable" ("boys will be boys" line of thinking) changed as well as he just wasn't as quick mentally and started to slip up on the lies. And he found he just wasn't able to keep his "activities" hidden as much as he did in the past. He was no longer able to juggle all the balls he had in the air and it all came crashing down.

I wonder if Bernie is going through the same.

Richard

Let's hope so.

[Sodemo]

I’m not sure he can just pay a fine here like he did in Germany. Somehow though these people always seem to get away with it. All those billions i’m sure can buy a half decent legal defence.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I’m not sure he can just pay a fine here like he did in Germany. Somehow though these people always seem to get away with it. All those billions i’m sure can buy a half decent legal defence.

Getting away with it?
That implies there is definitely something wrong.
Bernie paid all taxes required by Her Majesty's government when he was running F1.
Deals were done with the revenue department when there was a dispute and Bernie carried on.
If this current situation is linked in any way to assets under his control that were encompassed in earlier deals there will need to be clarification and assessment of what is owed and not owed and an arrangement will found.

They are not going to lock up a 91 year old man who lives, for all intents and purposes, on a coffee plantation in Brazil.

[Mike Harte]

Well, no accommodation appears to have been found as BCE appeared in court today, where he plead not guilty to fraudulently not disclosing approximately $600 million in a trust in Singapore. This was just an initial hearing, and the case was continued to a date in September, and he was granted bail to appear at that date.

[coppice]

Surprised he was never charged with stealing a sport . with a co- conspirator who just might have been called Max ...

[S griffin]

Sadly Liberty seem to be just as much money grabbing as Bernie was

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Sadly Liberty seem to be just as much money grabbing as Bernie was

Money grabbing - or just being a business?

[coppice]

Indeed - but being a business is not necessarily laudable when undertaken in the cynically avaricious way in which F1 Ltd has been conducting its business for decades. Highest bidders buy races for 40 pieces of silver , regardless of human rights (Russia,China , every Middle East regime ) and local appetite for motorsport. That's why Saudi can execute its citizens for criticising its joke of a regime , and Azerbaijan lock up journalists and yet both have Grands Prix , typically attended by a fraction of the numbers attracted to Silverstone or Spa . That's why , despite multiple Scandinavian F1 winners, we haven't had a Scandinavian GP since 1978 .

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by coppice

Highest bidders buy races for 40 pieces of silver , regardless of human rights (Russia,China , every Middle East regime ) and local appetite for motorsport.

I'm assuming you are holding Spain, Monaco, Austria, Hungary, Belgium and Netherlands to the same standard of being acceptable for generating a profit in?

[coppice]

If I knew what you meant I'd try to reply . Sorry

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by coppice

If I knew what you meant I'd try to reply . Sorry

If the criteria for not allowing a business to make money in "Russia,China , every Middle East regime" is based on a disregard of human rights, then why not apply the same critieria to the six countries I mention that also have questionable Human Rights records?

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Money grabbing - or just being a business?

I think it is possible to accept that Liberty (and Bernie before them) are good at being a business, but not like what they are doing to the sport. Getting rid of Spa-Francorchamps is a prime example of something that will probably be profitable in the short-term (I'm not convinced it will help them in the long term but I don't think they are planning to stick around), so is good for Formula 1 as a business, but terrible for Formula 1 as a sport as they are getting rid of one of the best tracks on the calendar. The same could be said about sprint races (although some fans do like them, I personally think they are bad for the sport, but they do make money).

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If the criteria for not allowing a business to make money in "Russia,China , every Middle East regime" is based on a disregard of human rights, then why not apply the same critieria to the six countries I mention that also have questionable Human Rights records?

Do the six countries you mention, Spain, Monaco, Austria, Hungary, Belgium and Netherlands, have questionable Human Rights records? If they do, or did, that would be some time ago. The difference with China, Russia and various Middle-Eastern countries, is human rights abuses is still on going.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Do the six countries you mention, Spain, Monaco, Austria, Hungary, Belgium and Netherlands, have questionable Human Rights records? If they do, or did, that would be some time ago. The difference with China, Russia and various Middle-Eastern countries, is human rights abuses is still on going.

Yes - they have questionable records. And the abuses are still ongoing.

It is just 'easier' to see some countries in that light than others.

Obviously there are scales to it - but for a couple of examples:

Spain pushes migrants and asylum seekers back at its borders, while hundreds died at sea attempting to reach the Canary Islands. Migrant agricultural workers experience unsanitary living conditions and labor exploitation. Prosecutions on overbroad criminal charges, and a draconian 2015 public security law, interfere with freedom of expression.

The Hungarian government undermines the rule of law and democratic institutions. Access to asylum is close to impossible for most nationalities, although many Ukrainians have been granted temporary protection. Independent journalists and media face pressure, including through surveillance by Pegasus spyware. Authorities trample LGBT rights, and fail to protect women’s rights. Hungary’s Roma minority face widespread and systemic discrimination.


HR issues exist - it's just a lot easier to turn a blind eye when they occur in Western Nations than to try and tackle them.

Obviously Liberty are an American business - are they being questioned over:
'Racial discrimination is a serious human rights problem in the United States that intersects with all of the US domestic issues covered by Human Rights Watch—from over-incarceration of Black and Latinx people fueled by the disproportionately harsh sentences meted out for all categories of crime, including violent offenses, to the failed War on Drugs, to prosecution and bail policies that coerce people into guilty pleas, to surveillance of specific groups, such as Muslims or political activists from other ethnic or religious minorities, to immigration policies that scapegoat immigrants as criminals, or subject asylum seekers and refugees to disparate treatment based on their national origin.'

[Mike Harte]

It is, perhaps, an irony that some "western" countries do have a slightly hidden human rights problem. For example, Spain has a tendency, often when it is politically expedient, to charge a person then, what we would call, remand those individuals to prison where they can languish for years and years without ever seeing a courthouse. I can think of at least one such individual who has been behind bars for about 15 years, and my guess is that he will probably see the end of his life there because it is politically embarrassing to a regional government and they don't want to see their dirty washing being laundered in the public gaze. And the press and others cannot publicise the matter because it is considered sub judice.

Also, their political system is full of corruption, whether that be at national, regional or local levels. And very little is done about it, because you don't throw stones in a glasshouse.

[coppice]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If the criteria for not allowing a business to make money in "Russia,China , every Middle East regime" is based on a disregard of human rights, then why not apply the same critieria to the six countries I mention that also have questionable Human Rights records?

Because the countries I mentioned are not signatories to the ECHR , don't have a free press, execute people for trivial 'crimes' and dissent and in the case of Russia..well you don't really need me to remind you do I ? Nowhere is unflawed , but the countries I mentioned are utterly appalling, by any civilised standard.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Yes - they have questionable records. And the abuses are still ongoing.

It is just 'easier' to see some countries in that light than others.

Obviously there are scales to it - but for a couple of examples:

Spain pushes migrants and asylum seekers back at its borders, while hundreds died at sea attempting to reach the Canary Islands. Migrant agricultural workers experience unsanitary living conditions and labor exploitation. Prosecutions on overbroad criminal charges, and a draconian 2015 public security law, interfere with freedom of expression.

The Hungarian government undermines the rule of law and democratic institutions. Access to asylum is close to impossible for most nationalities, although many Ukrainians have been granted temporary protection. Independent journalists and media face pressure, including through surveillance by Pegasus spyware. Authorities trample LGBT rights, and fail to protect women’s rights. Hungary’s Roma minority face widespread and systemic discrimination.


HR issues exist - it's just a lot easier to turn a blind eye when they occur in Western Nations than to try and tackle them.

Obviously Liberty are an American business - are they being questioned over:
'Racial discrimination is a serious human rights problem in the United States that intersects with all of the US domestic issues covered by Human Rights Watch—from over-incarceration of Black and Latinx people fueled by the disproportionately harsh sentences meted out for all categories of crime, including violent offenses, to the failed War on Drugs, to prosecution and bail policies that coerce people into guilty pleas, to surveillance of specific groups, such as Muslims or political activists from other ethnic or religious minorities, to immigration policies that scapegoat immigrants as criminals, or subject asylum seekers and refugees to disparate treatment based on their national origin.'

Interesting that the two countries highlighted, Hungary and Spain, were previously dictatorships and within living memory; Spain under Franco until 1975 and Hungary until 1989, when communist rule in the People's Republic of Hungary came to an end.

Western style democracy in Hungary and Spain, is relatively new and I'm not surprised that both countries, particularly Hungary, still hang on to what is an autocratic style of government.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by coppice

Because the countries I mentioned are not signatories to the ECHR [...] , but the countries I mentioned are utterly appalling, by any civilised standard.

The ECHR is a strange choice to make - why would a country outside of Europe be a signatory of the ECHR?
Australia, USA, Canada, Singapore, Japan, Mexico and Brazil have also not signed the ECHR.

Russia has actually signed the ECHR, with the exception of protocol 6.
Other countries that have not fully signed or ratified the ECHR:
Protocol 1 - Monaco
Protocol 4 - Turkey and UK
Protocol 7 - Germany, Netherlands and UK
Protocol 12 - France, Monaco, Poland, and UK

Stones / Glass Houses?

Define 'civilised standard' without western bias?

[Peter Mallett]

Although the UK has bound it into law by way of the HRA 1998.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Although the UK has bound it into law by way of the HRA 1998.

True. I just find it strange how many people judge the standards of other countries based on a limited set of criteria, but would be surprised to find that applying those same criteria to other countries that they are not opposed to would actually highlight a hypocrisy.

[Adam43]

What is going on here? By trying to make a point we lose the point.

It’s not unfair to view some of those countries in a different light. Nothing ridiculous happened there.

It’s also true that no country has a completely unblemished record and good to be reminded, but you can reasonably view some of these countries as having a worse record. To try and put every country in the same bucket is silly.

There are degrees and it is OK to highlight some rather than others. A perfectly reasonable thing to do and clearly should be understood.

And fair play to the Vettel’s and Hamilton’s for wearing the rainbow trainers.

[coppice]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The ECHR is a strange choice to make - why would a country outside of Europe be a signatory of the ECHR?
Australia, USA, Canada, Singapore, Japan, Mexico and Brazil have also not signed the ECHR.

Russia has actually signed the ECHR, with the exception of protocol 6.
Other countries that have not fully signed or ratified the ECHR:
Protocol 1 - Monaco
Protocol 4 - Turkey and UK
Protocol 7 - Germany, Netherlands and UK
Protocol 12 - France, Monaco, Poland, and UK

Stones / Glass Houses?

Define 'civilised standard' without western bias?

It's an example , ok ? If it's western basis to say that Russia is an international disgrace for its genocidal assault on Ukraine, or that China is guilty of utterly disgusting treatment of the Uighurs , or that Saudi has a medieval level of barbarism in its 'justice' system, or in its attitude to human rights ..then yup I am guilty as charged , I hold my hands up .

[Peter Mallett]

Soo, anyway this Bernie bloke.