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Old 30 Sep 2018, 13:09 (Ref:3853473)   #101
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Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles View Post
I don't think that's true. Everybody wants cars that are fast, look good and can race each other hard for the entire duration of the race. Including F1 itself. But just saying that is a meaningless statement. The problem is that people ask for the impossible and then complain they're not getting it. A large part of F1's reality is simply reality and unless you can come up with a way to change the laws of physics that's not going to change.
Yet MotoGP delivers on every one of these criteria on just about every race without the stupid gimmicks like degrading tyres or DRS!
F1 can too!
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Old 30 Sep 2018, 13:23 (Ref:3853480)   #102
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Yet MotoGP delivers on every one of these criteria on just about every race without the stupid gimmicks like degrading tyres or DRS!
F1 can too!
If you look back at my posts earlier in this thread you will see most of my suggestions are lifted from MotoGP. But keep in mind even then there will be boring races and unpredictable outcomes.
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Old 30 Sep 2018, 14:21 (Ref:3853501)   #103
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ASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The lower formulae can consistently provide more exciting, closer racing on the same tracks as F1, so clearly it's F1 that's coming up short. To fix F1 they should look at what works and what doesn't and act accordingly, and stop ****ing around the bowl by screwing with what works while leaving what doesn't work alone.

But nothing will ever change because F1/FIA are gutless worms in the pockets of the manufacturers.
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Old 30 Sep 2018, 16:17 (Ref:3853546)   #104
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The lower formulae can consistently provide more exciting, closer racing on the same tracks as F1, so clearly it's F1 that's coming up short. To fix F1 they should look at what works and what doesn't and act accordingly, and stop ****ing around the bowl by screwing with what works while leaving what doesn't work alone.

But nothing will ever change because F1/FIA are gutless worms in the pockets of the manufacturers.
are worms gutless?
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Old 30 Sep 2018, 20:00 (Ref:3853628)   #105
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How to fix F1? Stop what we saw today at Sochi, from happening again. That would be a start.
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 00:06 (Ref:3853686)   #106
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are worms gutless?
Fittingly and appropriately the parasites like tapeworm are gutless!
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 00:42 (Ref:3853690)   #107
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It left a bad taste in my mouth, however I understand why Toto Wolf did this..

Lewis is fighting to win a championship Valetteri is not...
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 06:27 (Ref:3853722)   #108
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Thanks so much for the spoiler... Not that I'm surprised , as team orders are part of F1 , and it's one thing I wouldn't change in F1 . Unlike the ridiculous power that here today , gone tomorrow factory teams enjoy .
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 08:33 (Ref:3853751)   #109
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Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Hmmmm....

MotoGP... astoundingly close racing for what seems like the last few years....control ecu ...hmmmm
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 14:27 (Ref:3853835)   #110
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How to fix F1? Stop what we saw today at Sochi, from happening again. That would be a start.
How do you stop something that's been happening since F1 started....? All you'll get is honest and open team orders being done instead in the sly and offensive way they've been done in the past.
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 16:32 (Ref:3853861)   #111
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Exactly. The fact is it’s ok if it’s honest and open, although it can be done discreetly and it certainly should not be like Austria 2002!
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 16:42 (Ref:3853863)   #112
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How do you stop something that's been happening since F1 started....? All you'll get is honest and open team orders being done instead in the sly and offensive way they've been done in the past.
When F1 started in the '50s weren't 'team orders' down to driver agreement? There didn't seem to be much agreement in yesterday's race. Bottas even asked whether driver position for the rest of the race would change.
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 16:47 (Ref:3853864)   #113
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He did indeed, but I'll lay odds-on he knew what the answer was going to be. Don't get me wrong, I don't like to see it either, Bottas deserved the win, but the wringing of hands over it as if it is somehow the work of the devil bemuses me.....
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 16:53 (Ref:3853866)   #114
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Hmmmm....

MotoGP... astoundingly close racing for what seems like the last few years....control ecu ...hmmmm
F1 has had a control ECU for almost 10 years and MotoGP was great before they introduced it.
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 17:56 (Ref:3853881)   #115
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When F1 started in the '50s weren't 'team orders' down to driver agreement? There didn't seem to be much agreement in yesterday's race. Bottas even asked whether driver position for the rest of the race would change.
I don't buy this line of reasoning. "More sporting" my ar*e.

The point in the 50s was for one driver to sacrifice points for another driver to gain them.

The point in 2018 is for one driver to sacrifice points for another driver to gain them.

The reason for doing it is the same, and the outcome is the same. It's just executed by a different person. If the reasoning is "race fixing", then the 50s version fits the definition of a race fix more than 2018 because it was an agreement between 2 competitors. If Liverpool threw a football match against Man Uted, nobody would say it's fine because they had some sort of bizarre sporting gentleman's agreement.

It's the same now as it has always been. If you hated it in 2018, then it's no good saying "it was better in the old days", because it wasn't. If you consider F1 broken now due to team orders, then it's always been broken due to team orders.
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 18:17 (Ref:3853885)   #116
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I don't buy this line of reasoning. "More sporting" my ar*e.

The point in the 50s was for one driver to sacrifice points for another driver to gain them.

The point in 2018 is for one driver to sacrifice points for another driver to gain them.

The reason for doing it is the same, and the outcome is the same. It's just executed by a different person. If the reasoning is "race fixing", then the 50s version fits the definition of a race fix more than 2018 because it was an agreement between 2 competitors. If Liverpool threw a football match against Man Uted, nobody would say it's fine because they had some sort of bizarre sporting gentleman's agreement.

It's the same now as it has always been. If you hated it in 2018, then it's no good saying "it was better in the old days", because it wasn't. If you consider F1 broken now due to team orders, then it's always been broken due to team orders.
Spot on….
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Old 1 Oct 2018, 22:40 (Ref:3853933)   #117
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If you consider F1 broken now due to team orders, then it's always been broken due to team orders.
I have some glasses for you, with PANTONE 13-1520 lenses.

Actually they might not be for you. I'm easily confused.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 00:25 (Ref:3853942)   #118
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I don't buy this line of reasoning. "More sporting" my ar*e.

The point in the 50s was for one driver to sacrifice points for another driver to gain them.

The point in 2018 is for one driver to sacrifice points for another driver to gain them.

The reason for doing it is the same, and the outcome is the same. It's just executed by a different person. If the reasoning is "race fixing", then the 50s version fits the definition of a race fix more than 2018 because it was an agreement between 2 competitors. If Liverpool threw a football match against Man Uted, nobody would say it's fine because they had some sort of bizarre sporting gentleman's agreement.

It's the same now as it has always been. If you hated it in 2018, then it's no good saying "it was better in the old days", because it wasn't. If you consider F1 broken now due to team orders, then it's always been broken due to team orders.
"More sporting" my ar*e?" Why then did Bottas ask the question about driver positions? He is either very naïve, or Mercedes are using him as Hamilton's rear gunner, or both.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 05:02 (Ref:3853968)   #119
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"More sporting" my ar*e?" Why then did Bottas ask the question about driver positions? He is either very naïve, or Mercedes are using him as Hamilton's rear gunner, or both.
He is just not fast enough…..
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 06:45 (Ref:3853975)   #120
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If only Bottas had been on it every weekend
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 08:03 (Ref:3853982)   #121
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That's just it - he's had the chances - not that anyone really expected him to challenge Lewis as Rosberg did. Now he is expected to pull for the team. I still see absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 08:05 (Ref:3853983)   #122
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"More sporting" my ar*e?" Why then did Bottas ask the question about driver positions? He is either very naïve, or Mercedes are using him as Hamilton's rear gunner, or both.
Bottas asking a question doesn't change how sporting or not sporting the decision is.

Bottas asked the question to make a point. He has to follow orders, he can't really say no otherwise Ocon, or whoever is next in the Mercedes revolving door of unused development drivers is, will take his seat. So he has to follow them without making too much fuss, but asking questions shows he's doing what he's told, but isn't happy.

The actual sporting side of things isn't changed by that radio call. The decision was still made for the same reason, with the same outcome.

I'm not saying I like team orders, or they're good or whatever, I'm just saying if you think this is any different to how F1 has ever been at any point, then you need to do some reading on history rather than assuming it fits your narrative of what the good old days were like. This is how it's always been. Whether or not it's time for that to change is open to discussion, but this isn't a new problem.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 08:23 (Ref:3853991)   #123
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Agreed but I suspect we are simply arguing what the term "sporting" means rather than the fact that team orders have existed since the year dot. Hence it's not worth discussing.

Anyway as DC said even though he pulled over for Mika in Australia that time, he still got his win bonus.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 10:21 (Ref:3854010)   #124
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Agreed but I suspect we are simply arguing what the term "sporting" means rather than the fact that team orders have existed since the year dot. Hence it's not worth discussing.

Anyway as DC said even though he pulled over for Mika in Australia that time, he still got his win bonus.
Jeez, pulling a driver over and then not giving him the win bonus would be adding insult to injury, be some interesting discussions with Bottas' engineers and Hamilton and his engineers regarding win bonuses too!
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 10:37 (Ref:3854013)   #125
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Bottas asked the question to make a point.
...
All true, but the fact that Bottas asked the question also indicates that this scenario was not made clear before the race. The post-race interviews and TW's reaction confirm as much.

And that is just plain stupid. I think no-one was really surprised Bottas was asked to move aside, but how difficult is it to make good arrangements before the race?

"Listen, Valtteri, you do you own race, but if Lewis is behind you we want him to finish in front of you. We'll let you know how and when we arrange that, but basically we want to maximize Lewis' points haul". So basically: HAM 1, BOT 2.

IF Lewis doesn't agree or really really really doesn't want it, he can make his case as well (and we may or may not agree and give in). At least we avoid the 'strange' radio message and the awkward post-race and podium ceremonies.
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