[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The Delta Wing wasn't legal to any ALMS or ACO class last year either... somehow it ran at PLM.

If Porsche made the offer to run at PLM, the ALMS would accept the entry gladly.

Quoting myself from above:

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Another reason why they definitely won't race it this year (even if it might be allowed unclassified somewhere): the BoP culture doesn't make it advantageous to show your hand this early, getting the car on track at Petit just gives everyone else a few extra months to snoop around the car and outclass it in areas they'll be trying to hide.

Why would they want to show their hand 4 months early and give everyone (including all their rivals and the engineers working for their rivals) a glimpse of whatever new they're trying to do with this car 4-5 months before the car is actually slated to race?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mal

To think that there will be no resource sharing and that every single thing will be autonomous is also silly

While they are all part of the same family, I think there is a great deal of pride within each company and given that (I think) VAG has given them a great deal of latitude, I suspect there will be little if any sharing. What exists within the VAG "parts bin" that is not really already proprietary (i.e. secret) for each team? The only thing that I can imagine "might" be shared is some simple/basic hybrid components. But even then, I would be surprised if that was to happen. I personally expect to see both 100% Audi and 100% Porsche solutions.

Richard

[deggis]

Originally Posted by pmhaddad

This is exciting! So sad we won't see this thing racing in the US

WEC @ Austin?

Originally Posted by tpa8580

Here is to hoping the run it with a Martini livery.
And If squint real hard I see a little 956 .

Martini - French alcohol advertising laws make that a bit hard. Of course something like Ferrari & "hidden" Marlboro logo could work for Le Mans, but the car does already have small Adidas and Mobil1 logos on the side. Mobil1 could be there just more for the technical partnership. So that leaves Adidas. German, huge company. Would be nice as a major sponsor with the livery based on it.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by deggis

WEC @ Austin?


Martini - French alcohol advertising laws make that a bit hard. Of course something like Ferrari & "hidden" Marlboro logo could work for Le Mans, but the car does already have small Adidas and Mobil1 logos on the side. Mobil1 could be there just more for the technical partnership. So that leaves Adidas. German, huge company. Would be nice as a major sponsor with the livery based on it.

Adidas, Mobil1 and Michelin are all corporate partners of Porsche, and appear on all factory run cars... see current GTE programme, Hybrid 911, RS Spyder...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Why would they want to show their hand 4 months early and give everyone (including all their rivals and the engineers working for their rivals) a glimpse of whatever new they're trying to do with this car 4-5 months before the car is actually slated to race?

If they were to show up, and no other factory showed, would they really need to show their full hand? How would this affect BoP? Nothing to compare to... who else will have run their 2014 cars at that point?

Do you really think Toyota is going to look at this car, with an extra four months, and think wow...we screwed up, let's redesign our car completely now.

Do you think Audi is going to find something that translates much to their Diesel?

Heck, it's June, and Porsche are releasing photos already, where it is pretty clear to see what is going on with much of the car.

... as to why, it would be a huge marketing opportunity for them, and it is quite clear that Porsche is using this as a marketing exercise.

[GTfour]

Brilliant looking machine! I'm very curious about its powerplant. Also, to start testing allready this early, shows Porsche deffinitally mean bussines.
I expect them to scare the opposition thoroughly.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Breitling24

Adidas, Mobil1 and Michelin are all corporate partners of Porsche, and appear on all factory run cars... see current GTE programme.

Just figured that out. Maybe the title/major sponsor (I just hope there is going to be one) will be announced later.

Already ignored Michelin obviously because all cars using its tyres have the logo somewhere.

[Pole2Win]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Who knows, it's difficult to quantify such a statement. Audi have largely been competing against themselves for best part of a decade and we've only been able to judge them against one opponent at a time. Maybe Peugeot and Audi were equally bad, and a third manufacturer could have come along and blitzed them both!

There's no doubting that Audi are a tough competitor, but Porsche have faced the very best that the late 90s GT1, late 80s Group C and the 1970s eras could throw at them and come out on top.

Of course, that's not relevant to previous efforts - it's not like they share any personnel from the 917 days. But the current Porsche company understands its history, and will ensure it doesn't rest on its laurels.

IMO, they'll have a better understanding and grasp of it all than Toyota who, in my opinion, just aren't taking this seriously enough as a company.

I don't expect Porsche to win anything in the first years... Look at the 991 RSR, it's hardly blitzing the competition in GTE, more like crawling at the back of the pack actually. The last 997 GT3 RSR from 2012 was also a disaster, which is why Porsche scrapped the car and moved on to the 991 this year.

More importantly Porsche needs a good TEAM. Good operation, good drivers... Audi has it all, Joest had decades of experience in sportscar racing when they first associated with Audi. Porsche associated to Penske in ALMS with great success, unlocking the full potential of the RS Spyder.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Diesel in 2014? Unlikely, Peugeot already anticipates a switch to petrol because Diesel will not make any sense if there`s even more downsizing.

this is what im thinking man. if after this year, diesel dominates, im sure ACO will peg them back. pretty sure Audi wont stay around for that. makes no sense to switch from diesel to petrol and race for a few years. Audi is all about the diesel these days

[deggis]

^ That comment was from June 2011..

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by deggis

^ That comment was from June 2011..

Ha! probably because it was right?

[tpa8580]

Wasn't able to find it in the regulations, but are the 2014 cars allowed to run the full size wings again 1900mm wide?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by tpa8580

Wasn't able to find it in the regulations, but are the 2014 cars allowed to run the full size wings again 1900mm wide?

Max car width 1900mm, max rear wing 1800mm. If you look closely, there is some difference still, but as right now the car width is 2000mm and rear wing 1600mm, so it is a huge difference visually and it does look pretty "full sized".

[AndyN]

I admit I am not sure who is in overall charge here, but won't Audi simply get their wick "turned down" for a year or two a la Bentley 2002/2003 ?

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by AndyN

I admit I am not sure who is in overall charge here, but won't Audi simply get their wick "turned down" for a year or two a la Bentley 2002/2003 ?

No way. That'd imply that Audi is the unbeatable team, which it isn't.
On top of that, Porsche is still the topmanufacturer of the VAG group and I think Herr Piëch will want 'his' favorite to show how good they are. It's a matter of honour for Porsche to beat Audi fair and square.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by AndyN

I admit I am not sure who is in overall charge here, but won't Audi simply get their wick "turned down" for a year or two a la Bentley 2002/2003 ?

Porsche CEO Matthias Mueller:

Will you race against Audi, which, like Porsche, is a Volkswagen-owned marque?
MM: At that time the decision is that Audi takes place in LMP1, and we [do] also, so Audi will be a competitor, yes.

(Sept 2012) http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120910/ALMS/120919979

And weirder things have happened: Peugeot and Citroen were direct competitors in WRC in the early 2000s.

[Salamus]

When I first saw the pictures I thought it was an R18+.

I wouldn't say it looks horrible but it doesn't look great to me either. Maybe once I see the whole car, I'll change my mind.

It is fantastic that they have a car ready so early. It will probably change but this shows Porsche are serious about 2014. Next year will be a great WEC season.

About the Audi vs Porsche topic. As far as I know, VAG operates differently compared to other car companies. Each brand in VAG operates on its own and makes its own cars. Porsche vs Audi will happen and VAG doesn't care because as far as they are concerned, both companies will get a lot of coverage/exposure.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Why would they want to show their hand 4 months early and give everyone (including all their rivals and the engineers working for their rivals) a glimpse of whatever new they're trying to do with this car 4-5 months before the car is actually slated to race?

Real-world testing? Le Mans may be the big one, but Sebring and Petit Le Mans are great warmups in preparation for the big one. Besides, there are tens of thousands of sports car fans in the US that would like to see this. Stuff like this gets us folks in America to the tracks. That's my reason for suggesting why.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Zpectre

I don't expect Porsche to win anything in the first years... Look at the 991 RSR, it's hardly blitzing the competition in GTE, more like crawling at the back of the pack actually. The last 997 GT3 RSR from 2012 was also a disaster, which is why Porsche scrapped the car and moved on to the 991 this year.

More importantly Porsche needs a good TEAM. Good operation, good drivers... Audi has it all, Joest had decades of experience in sportscar racing when they first associated with Audi. Porsche associated to Penske in ALMS with great success, unlocking the full potential of the RS Spyder.

So you talk about the bad fortunes on the GT front , but play up the prior success of the relatively recent RS Spyder. Explain to us again why you think Porsche is unlikely to do well at prototype racing with this new car? Maybe you meant to post this in a GT thread?

Richard

[PointDSM]

Originally Posted by Salamus

When I first saw the pictures I thought it was an R18+.

I wouldn't say it looks horrible but it doesn't look great to me either. Maybe once I see the whole car, I'll change my mind.

It is fantastic that they have a car ready so early. It will probably change but this shows Porsche are serious about 2014. Next year will be a great WEC season.

About the Audi vs Porsche topic. As far as I know, VAG operates differently compared to other car companies. Each brand in VAG operates on its own and makes its own cars. Porsche vs Audi will happen and VAG doesn't care because as far as they are concerned, both companies will get a lot of coverage/exposure.

I thought the same until I saw the pit-lane picture. The livery does a VERY good job at tricking the eyes from afar. Once a proper livery is placed on the car, I think your opinion will change.

The front-end is very different than anything out there, and the rear fenders are very "RS-like".

[Lagunaseca_4life]

I personally like it,I was happy when I saw the pics.it goes to show Porsche is pretty serious, one thing I have to wonder is how they will go about the wec and Le Mans, take a Toyota approach one car wec and two Le Mans or the Audi way two car wec and three four car Le Mans attack? That would be cool, one car Le Mans would be some what of a let down.as far as the looks it looks good and unique to me eventhough we can't see much, it feels the same as when the r18 came out but it has grown on me over time.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by PointDSM

I thought the same until I saw the pit-lane picture. The livery does a VERY good job at tricking the eyes from afar. Once a proper livery is placed on the car, I think your opinion will change.

The front-end is very different than anything out there, and the rear fenders are very "RS-like".

I hope so! Maybe a couple wins might change my opinion as well.

When I saw the pit lane picture, I began to hate the front-end of the car. I don't know if it's my eyes playing tricks on me or if it's just the angle of the picture but it looks like the bodywork sticks out too much at the front.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Zpectre

I don't expect Porsche to win anything in the first years... Look at the 991 RSR, it's hardly blitzing the competition in GTE, more like crawling at the back of the pack actually .

The current 991 RSR you see racing still has the old Mezger engine. It will have a new engine based on the new GT3 road going engine for 2014.

Originally Posted by Zpectre

The last 997 GT3 RSR from 2012 was also a disaster, which is why Porsche scrapped the car and moved on to the 991 this year.

No, that is not why Porsche scrapped the 997 based RSR. The 997 model came to the end of its production cycle, and Porsche introduced the 991. They needed to start developing what will become the new 991 RSR for customers in 2014, so 2013 is a development year.

[Spyderman]

Let’s get back to a possible driver line-up for a moment.

Porsche currently has a team of 10 works drivers. Let’s assume that Porsche will need 6 drivers to cater to their 2014 commitments to GTE customer teams. The possible six (in no particular order) could be as follows:
1. Pat Long (I suspect will be a reserve driver for LMP1 program)
2. Nick Tandy
3. Marco Holzer
4. Wolf Henzler
5. Joerg Bergmeister (Possible reserve driver for LMP1 program)
6. Marc Lieb .
I see a possibility of Lieb staying on with the RSR project because I don’t know how much (if any) involvement he has had in the development of the LMP1. I suspect that he is much more involved with the 991 RSR and I further suspect that he will be the “resident on-track” engineer/driver for the GTE cars.
Assuming this scenario to be true, then this leaves the following drivers:
1. Timo Bernhard (Confirmed)
2. Roman Dumas (Confirmed)
3. Richard Lietz (is very quick in a 911. Will his speed show in a LMP1?)
4. Patrick Pilet (is very quick and has F3 experience).
Again: Assuming this to be the case, then Porsche will have to recruit another 2 drivers of a possible 3.
1. Neel Jani (I would say the odds seem to be about 70%- 30%)
2. Mark Webber (50% - 50%)
3. Nick Heidfeld (60% - 40%).
On the other hand, Porsche could have Bernhard and Dumas set a time with the car, and see how many of the other factory drivers can come close/match or better that time.
This method might take care of having to spend too much money on driver contracting.
On the other hand, it could backfire and indicate that they will need to contract 3 or 4 new drivers.

The next months are going to be very interesting indeed!

[PorscheFanNo1]

So outright speed over a lap is the only quality you are looking for in a driver for LeMans24...? :P