[Official] Rate the race: Malaysian Grand Prix

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Sorry, I assumed you thought it was better in the past. You don't seem to like it now, but you must have previously to start and keep watching it. I just assumed. Incorrectly it seems. My fault.

The racing wasn't any better in the past. The cars may have been more exciting but that's a different discussion. Why did I like it before ? I guess because there was very little else in the way of motor sport on TV and we didn't have the kaleidoscope of media devices we have today.

A few years ago, somebody put the question of the lack of racing in F1 to Christian Horner. His response was along the lines of - if you want to see wheel to wheel racing, then go to Shenington kart track... what we do here in F1 is different (!) I have to say, I agree with him.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by davyboy

if you want to see wheel to wheel racing, then go to Shenington kart track... what we do here in F1 is different (!)

Which leads us to the question, what the hell do they do in F1?

I think Dieter is asking this very question currently ...

[TrapezeArtist]

Whatever else may have improved or deteriorated over the years, the rose-tinting of spectacles goes from strength to strength. My love affair with F1 extends all the way back to the early sixties, though it has waxed and waned a fair bit over the years.

Of course there are things about modern F1 that I think could be done better. I can even pick out little examples from the past that could be used (probably in modified form) to improve modern F1. But on the whole, F1 is much better today, and over many years it has followed an erratic though generally upward trend.

We have already commented about the massive winning margins of the Mercedes so far this year. Of course we would prefer to see a race won by a hairs-breadth, but in the past most races were won by those sort of margins, or even greater. And it was normal for a race to finsh with only 2 or 3 cars on the lead lap.

We worried about reliability pre-season, and it has turned out much better than expected. Especially so when you think that in the past a 50% retirement rate was the norm.

Some of the cheating that went on in the 80s is just embarrassing. In the 60s and 70s, technical rules were artificial obstacles to be dodged around by some of the world's most inventive minds. As the rules got tighter, it became more difficult to find legitimate swerves around them so some people (indeed, most people) applied their minds to breaking the rules.

Before downforce aerodynamics got into it's stride in the 1980s, the aerodynamic advantage usually lay with the car behind. Combined with long braking distances due to low downforce, this led to easy overtaking. And if two cars were evenly matched the advantage swapped between them each time they overtook. All this ended when downforce became king. Races were processional, the best drivers often failed to win because they couldn't overtake, and there were many accidents caused by the desperate lunges of desperate drivers. DRS just takes us back to that golden era when slipstreaming and overtaking were easy. Unless you are going to un-invent downforce, DRS is essential to fair and enjoyable racing.

Back in the sixties, the "racing improves the breed" claim was already running out of steam, but it hung on in there in our collective imaginations for a few more years. In the past couple of decades it has been obvious that grand prix racing had almost nothing to offer more prosaic forms of transport, though the management systems that allowed such rapid development could benefit all sorts of industries. When KERS first appeared, I thought this was F1's opportunity to return to relevance but it was hobbled by the restrictions on useage, power and capacity. This year the new rules open up truly relevant automotive technology to the white heat of F1 competition, and racing again has the opportunity to improve the breed.

I could go on and on, but I must get some work done. I'll leave you all with a final thought:
Nostalgia isn't as good as it used to be.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Nostalgia isn't as good as it used to be.

We don't always need to look backwards to go forwards

[wnut]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

This post may .... follow as well.

Previously F1 was at the cutting edge of technology, the best, fastest and most dangerous form of motor racing on the planet.
The cost in lives lost was sickening.
The racing often was not close.

The drivers were however the best in the world, proved week in week out in the lower formulae and sports cars, and their courage commitment and enthusiasm was beyond doubt.

Nowadays we are seeing a circus containing many very ordinary pay drivers who take no risks and put on a show featuring mundane equipment running a regularity and fuel efficiency trial for a considerable price, to the huge benefit of a select few.

Kind of like comparing an X15 test pilot to a Jumbo Jet pilot.

Under these conditions, the racing had better be good! No ifs no buts!

P.S. Lots of it is better than it ever was, I don't miss the dodgy Pirellis at all! I do however expect them to make a return and run things again!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

This post may be in the wrong place, so feel free to remove it. Can't think of a better time or place to say this though.

I do feel there is an overwhelming negativity towards Grand Prix Motor Racing today, which is frustrating as I find the sport absolutely thrilling. We seem to focus far too much on the negatives, comments on social Media about there being F1 Fans and then Motor Sport Fans strike me as ridiculous. The constant desire to return to the past, I refuse to mix my words here, is pathetic. I am not on about any comments in this thread, I feel the race has been rated rather low but valid opinions have been more than given (sorry sound like a judge now)! Constant predictions of the death of the sport, whilst refusing to acknowledge the massive multi-million viewer audiance, the sponsors who continue to invest. I also find it frustrating when people refuse to understand why the sport is trying to adapt, with DRS and degrading tyres, to create the better racing every fan demands. We cant forget what we have leant, Formula Ford racing with no wings is terrific but face it, will never return to top level Motor Sport. We constantly lambast the rule makers who try and give us what we say want. A closer championship fight? Gauranteed? Double points is a logical solution. The sport, whether you agree or not it is by definition sport and therefore by definition entertainment. I enjoy all forms of Motor Racing, touring cars are utterly enthralling and the WEC is quality. But F1 is the defined pinnacle, not the best but the International represntative. If anyone kills this sport, it will be the fans becoming too demanding and expecting too much. Or the greedy so and so's at CVC.

The race:7. Some good battles and a few nice stories to follow as well.

An interesting take but I personally don't think DRS and degrading tyres have helped the sport adapt.

[migliacars]

A 5 for me.

Got to say I had more sleep in the race than I did the night before.

Really enjoyed the first race though.

But Motorsport is Motorsport and sometimes its not the best to watch as a spectator.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

...

Nowadays we are seeing a circus containing many very ordinary pay drivers who take no risks and put on a show featuring mundane equipment running a regularity and fuel efficiency trial for a considerable price, to the huge benefit of a select few.
...

Many ordinary pay drivers, amateurs if you will, that is another thing that links current F1 with the past.
Risk, yes that is significantly different.
Mundane equipment? Nah, interest now, interesting then. More interesting than the early 60s certainly.
Efficiency, well that is linking it to very old motorsport.
Huge benefit of a select few. Again linking the current to the past perfectly again. Expect i think there are probably more people who benefit now.

It was suggested that the news media, the internet, ease of information has all diminished the sport in our minds. Did we rally need that to tell us. Could we not work it out on our own?
Now it has been pointed out to us we've demanded it changed and those changes have removed the sport element. Double points ha!

I can see no way to solve these problems as they have always been there. Well I can see a way and that is to continue to destroy the sporting element of the sport. Points joker cards next?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Points joker cards next?

Absolutely! And Stuart Hall to commentate once he's, er, free from any other commitments.......

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Double points ha!

I can see no way to solve these problems as they have always been there. Well I can see a way and that is to continue to destroy the sporting element of the sport. Points joker cards next?

Pretty well the same thing was achieved in a far more interesting way by forcing the drivers to drop their worst result in each half of the season.

I always thought the racing improved significantly once the championship had been decided and everyone was off the leash!

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by wnut

Previously F1 was at the cutting edge of technology, the best, fastest and most dangerous form of motor racing on the planet.
The cost in lives lost was sickening.
The racing often was not close.

The drivers were however the best in the world, proved week in week out in the lower formulae and sports cars, and their courage commitment and enthusiasm was beyond doubt.

Nowadays we are seeing a circus containing many very ordinary pay drivers who take no risks and put on a show featuring mundane equipment running a regularity and fuel efficiency trial for a considerable price, to the huge benefit of a select few.

Kind of like comparing an X15 test pilot to a Jumbo Jet pilot.

Under these conditions, the racing had better be good! No ifs no buts!

P.S. Lots of it is better than it ever was, I don't miss the dodgy Pirellis at all! I do however expect them to make a return and run things again!

There is no way you should be calling the current crop of F1 driver ordinary. That just plain wrong. Anyone who can drive an F1 car round a circuit is by almost by definition one of the best drivers in the world - even if they pay for their seat. Yes, there are good drivers in the lower formulas, but that absolutely does not mean they are better than the current F1 drivers.

Also, these car are really the pinnacle of (race) car tech - they are not *ordinary*. They have fantastically fuel efficient engines, state of the art aero, state of the art composite manufacture, and crash structures that mean even accidents at immense speed are usually surviable. There are NO other cars with the same level of tech. Period.

I suggest a look at the lap times of various circuits just to see how fast an current F1 car is compared to the rest. Even with the lower HP engines we have now.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Well I can see a way and that is to continue to destroy the sporting element of the sport. Points joker cards next?

Why not ? It's never been a sport in the true sense of the word anyways. The athletic equivalent of F1 would be to have two runners in spiked trainers, a few others in joggers, a few more in flip flops and two wearing stilettos ! F1 is part of the entertainment industry. It needs a big audience to indirectly fund it's enormous outgoings. They watch it because they find it entertaining... well at least they used to. Without an audience to entertain, it's brown bread... simple as.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Why not ? It's never been a sport in the true sense of the word anyways. The athletic equivalent of F1 would be to have two runners in spiked trainers, a few others in joggers, a few more in flip flops and two wearing stilettos ! F1 is part of the entertainment industry. It needs a big audience to indirectly fund it's enormous outgoings. They watch it because they find it entertaining... well at least they used to. Without an audience to entertain, it's brown bread... simple as.

Hmm. More like..

The athletic equivalent of F1 would be to have two runners in spiked trainers, a few others in slightly less expensive spiked trainers, a few more where the spikes are not very sharp, and the remainder where the spikes have almost worn away.

Even the 'slow' cars are very fast. Go to any other race series, and you get a wider spread of times than you do in F1.

I find the current stuff fairly entertain, no worse than some other recent seasons. But I am a big fan of the engine technology, and really don't care what they sound like....

[Kempi]

Besides, the slow cars are much closer to the front than they used to be. Just take a look at the difference between the Williams and the also-runs in 92. Mansell's poletime was sometimes further ahead from the next non-Williams than it is nowadays between pole and last place.

[davyboy]

Put Lewis in Chilton's car and Chilton in Lewis' car... who's gonna finish ahead ?

[Knowlesy]

Lewis.

[Adam43]

Max.

What fatuous question. Obviously intentionally.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Why not ? It's never been a sport in the true sense of the word anyways. The athletic equivalent of F1 would be to have two runners in spiked trainers, a few others in joggers, a few more in flip flops and two wearing stilettos ! F1 is part of the entertainment industry. It needs a big audience to indirectly fund it's enormous outgoings. They watch it because they find it entertaining... well at least they used to. Without an audience to entertain, it's brown bread... simple as.

This comes down to a philosophy of what F1 is about. If it is a competition between people (primarily drivers) there has to be some equity in terms of equipment (which is why there are rules) and in opportunity.

One dominant car and people will lose interest - and that's probably why we have ended up with a plethora of one-make series, the cost and the philosophy that everyone deserves to have an equal opportunity....

Because it is a competition between human beings it is regarded as a sport. If it is just an expensive technical competition between teams for entertainment then take away the drivers championship (WDC) and just have a constructors championship and watch what happens to the 'entertained' audience and the sponsor interest.
If F1 loses the public support for the driver contest (WDC) because the sporting aspect is lost I think F1 will essentially wither and eventually die on the vine.

It would no longer appeal as an entertainment to most of the world wide audience, only technical enthusiasts would follow it.
WEC is essentially entertainment competition between constructors and manufacturers and the world wide audience is only a fraction of that of F1. Mind you if F1 died and all we had was WEC.....

[Adam43]

But no has has actually changed with regard to that? The car/team has always been dominant in the relationship. When was the peak following or TV audience? Was the car/team not dominant then? In those classic seasons was it not the case? It's the minority, the exceptions, that weren't.

Has the sport changed? Or have our demands? Maybe the sport should adapt? Perhaps, but for me, not for these reasons.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Adam43

But no has has actually changed with regard to that? The car/team has always been dominant in the relationship. When was the peak following or TV audience? Was the car/team not dominant then? In those classic seasons was it not the case? It's the minority, the exceptions, that weren't.

Has the sport changed? Or have our demands? Maybe the sport should adapt? Perhaps, but for me, not for these reasons.

I am not suggesting change Adam.
I just think that F1 is predominantly a sport, with the team and technical side a business, the business is secondary to the sporting side.

Essentially its about the WDC, and if you lost that ideal in peoples minds, whether it is real or imagined, F1 would suffer considerably in its public profile, and ultimately, financially.

[Aysedasi]

Did anyone manage to find the Rate the Race thread? I'm sure it was around here somewhere........

[Adam43]

1. Only because there is no zero.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JamesH

There is no way you should be calling the current crop of F1 driver ordinary. That just plain wrong. Anyone who can drive an F1 car round a circuit is by almost by definition one of the best drivers in the world - even if they pay for their seat. Yes, there are good drivers in the lower formulas, but that absolutely does not mean they are better than the current F1 drivers.

I just feel that the criteria that get drivers F1 seats on the whole bear no relation to their talent. The youngsters never get a chance to run against the established pros and prove their worth.
Look how impressive Magnussen is straight off.
There are indeed some of the best drivers in the world in F1 no arguments,
MotoGP on the other hand pretty well has all the best track riders in its ranks.

Originally Posted by JamesH

Also, these car are really the pinnacle of (race) car tech - they are not *ordinary*. They have fantastically fuel efficient engines, state of the art aero, state of the art composite manufacture, and crash structures that mean even accidents at immense speed are usually surviable. There are NO other cars with the same level of tech. Period. .

The F1 cars are now pretty well spec racers constructed to rule.
Exquisitely crafted yes, but not cutting edge, look at the WEC energy recovery systems. (This is my biggest beef, they do not have unlimited KERS, or indeed open KERS. They are not exploring the boundaries of technology, just finessing what they are allowed to do!)
Cutting edge car aerodynamics certainly, but still within finely drafted regulations - finessing.

Originally Posted by JamesH

I suggest a look at the lap times of various circuits just to see how fast an current F1 car is compared to the rest. Even with the lower HP engines we have now.

Lap times, nothing worthwhile is allowed to race on F1 circuits, the GP2 cars would be close at a fraction of the cost, and F3 times on Monaco are not that far off an F1 car. I think from memory Hamilton's pole time at Monaco when they were allowed to run there would have put him on the back of the F1 grid.


My real point is that F1 cars are not exploring experimental technology that made the formula so appealing in the past, so you are not going to witness a newly developed technology humble the rest.
The wheel racing and sporting contest has therefore become much more important to what F1 is about, so they better be able to race, otherwise it is a pointless exercise!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Max.

What fatuous question. Obviously intentionally.

I agree it was a silly question and yes it was intentional too... but it was there to demonstrate that F1 isn't a sport in the pure sense of the term... but something different.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

This comes down to a philosophy of what F1 is about. If it is a competition between people (primarily drivers) there has to be some equity in terms of equipment (which is why there are rules) and in opportunity.

One dominant car and people will lose interest - and that's probably why we have ended up with a plethora of one-make series, the cost and the philosophy that everyone deserves to have an equal opportunity....

Because it is a competition between human beings it is regarded as a sport. If it is just an expensive technical competition between teams for entertainment then take away the drivers championship (WDC) and just have a constructors championship and watch what happens to the 'entertained' audience and the sponsor interest.
If F1 loses the public support for the driver contest (WDC) because the sporting aspect is lost I think F1 will essentially wither and eventually die on the vine.

It would no longer appeal as an entertainment to most of the world wide audience, only technical enthusiasts would follow it.
WEC is essentially entertainment competition between constructors and manufacturers and the world wide audience is only a fraction of that of F1. Mind you if F1 died and all we had was WEC.....

Most of us here know that F1 is really a technical [spending ?] battle between the teams. The drivers' championship is a smokescreen to sell the circus as a sport. This is because human interest is sparked by human competition and the personalities involved rather than technical competition... exactly as you pointed out above. Because the driver has such little influence on the overall package performance... and the pecking order is often set like Noah's Ark... we have had all these silly bells and whistles introduced to make it more entertaining.

... it could be made into a sport where the driver really could influence the outcome independent of his machine, and I think it would be much more interesting if that happened, but that's for another discussion.