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Old 16 Dec 2020, 22:38 (Ref:4023343)   #101
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Reducing CO2 is only part of the emission benefit of EV. Local emissions are another.

This is too confusing for most; people, governments, and the supply chains, but the solution is a probably a mix of technologies depending on application. Unfortunately people will either categorically want the new or be too Luddite to change. Governments will get confused in how to encourage or tax across different solutions. The supply change will be slow to react to either.

But then that is how we live; it’s one thing or the other, something in the middle can’t be right.
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Old 16 Dec 2020, 22:42 (Ref:4023345)   #102
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I suspect producing carbon neutral synthetic fuel is a lot more expensive and energy intensive than producing hydrogen for those EVs. Especially when we're talking about mass production.

As for the 'test bed', how much is there to test, really? Is it that different from using biofuel in ICE?
Not much I reckon, it's all window dressing anyway probably. At least synthetic run V10/V12's are an enjoyable and suitable form of window dressing. Unlike the hybrid turbo's.
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Old 17 Dec 2020, 10:06 (Ref:4023392)   #103
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This is too confusing for most; people, governments, and the supply chains, but the solution is a probably a mix of technologies depending on application. Unfortunately people will either categorically want the new or be too Luddite to change. Governments will get confused in how to encourage or tax across different solutions. The supply change will be slow to react to either.
Frankly, I think most people want affordable convenience and "luxury" and more and more of them couldn't really be arsed about cars, let alone technology (beyond marketing slogans) and racing.
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Old 17 Dec 2020, 12:26 (Ref:4023416)   #104
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Yes. Most people want a car to do a job. They want it to be comfortable and be reliable. Ideally with Bluetooth.
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Old 17 Dec 2020, 15:35 (Ref:4023448)   #105
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Yes. Most people want a car to do a job. They want it to be comfortable and be reliable. Ideally with Bluetooth.
Bluetooth. Yes. Lol!

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Old 17 Dec 2020, 16:37 (Ref:4023462)   #106
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At least synthetic run V10/V12's are an enjoyable and suitable form of window dressing. Unlike the hybrid turbo's.
Precisely!

Just check out this 2003 Monaco Grand Prix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2dg7x1glZU

It's just so much better than the current spectacle. I thought things were supposed to get better, not worse.
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Old 17 Dec 2020, 20:36 (Ref:4023496)   #107
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Just check out this 2003 Monaco Grand Prix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2dg7x1glZU

It's just so much better than the current spectacle. I thought things were supposed to get better, not worse.
Ah... the times when the only thing that sounded less than amazing in a Grand Prix was James Allen.

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The introduction of sustainable fuels is part of the FIA's plan to make Formula 1 carbon neutral by 2021, and eventually have a net-zero carbon footprint of zero by 2030.
Unless they're planning to have all the world championship rounds at Silverstone, they'll need to suck hundreds of tons of CO2 out of the air to offset air travel alone!
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Old 17 Dec 2020, 23:01 (Ref:4023519)   #108
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Am I the only one who, by about 2007 once the novelty wore off, thought the 2.4 V8s sounded quite meh? They're un-musical sounding on video and quite unpleasant/ear damaging in person. Efficient modern flat-plane V8 race engines tend to be the most bland and generic sounding of all possible configurations.

The V12 is almost inevitably a rich complex sound, or at least it sounds higher-revving than it really is, which makes it interesting and exciting.
The V10 (like the i5) always has a prominent major third interval going that humans naturally find pleasant for some reason.
6-pots tend to sound like half a V12, or a V12 at half the revs, which is pretty good too.

I'd only welcome V8s if they are introduced to diversify the field of V12s, V10s and V6. In fact, every manufacturer must be required by the rules to opt for a configuration of engine that isn't currently in use by any of the competitors!
In Spec, they sounded awful because on one end of the power train they had traction control wheezing and popping as it cut cylinders allowing driver to mash the throttle completely unskilled to put the power down.

Then at the other end they had a rev limiter that likewise caused an awful crackle at the top end of the power train for...I dunno, some reason or other.
Probably cost saving.

This, combined with the grooved tyres they didn't run it on, the ridiculous amount of aero appendages that covered every flat surface and made the cars impossible to follow each other and the refueling rules which blighted the era means we have a 3 page thread at current standing, based on nostalgia for an era that wasn't even that great in the first place.
The CHAMPIONSHIP battle might have been closer, but the race by race action was woefully poor.
Start, 2 pitstop of under/overcut and you're done, little in the way of on track passing at all

Luckily, those in power of the sport don't govern with the minds of fans reminiscant of an era when they first watched the sport and were watching uncritically.
Obviously, they go where the money is and suit their own selfish interests, but re-doing the past won't make them any richer, so we don't have to be worry about being blighted with the nadir of the mid 2000s spec ever again
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Old 17 Dec 2020, 23:30 (Ref:4023523)   #109
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Precisely!

Just check out this 2003 Monaco Grand Prix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2dg7x1glZU

It's just so much better than the current spectacle. I thought things were supposed to get better, not worse.
Check out 1993. It's just so much better than the 2003 spectacle.

And repeat...
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Old 19 Dec 2020, 19:55 (Ref:4023951)   #110
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Check out 1993. It's just so much better than the 2003 spectacle.
No it's not. 1993 has that god-awful active suspension Williams that doesn't roll or pitch and is unnatural looking and boring to watch, and silly 2.0m narrow track cars with silly narrow (13.8" section IIRC, the same up to 2016) rear tyres.

1989 or 1990 is the year you want, with these beauties at the proper 2.15m width of a traditional Grand Prix car and nice chunky 385mm wide (imperial Goodyears @ 15" section/25" dia R13) rear tyres:



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Old 19 Dec 2020, 19:59 (Ref:4023952)   #111
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Check out 1993. It's just so much better than the 2003 spectacle.
1973 is certainly fun too -- four wheel drifts around the bends thanks to the crossply tyres that work better at large slip angles: https://youtu.be/wpeM0Pzl0SQ?t=2054

Damn those radial tyres, i.e., the "R" in R13.
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Old 19 Dec 2020, 21:51 (Ref:4023968)   #112
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No it's not.
Yes it was.

But 1989 or 1990 was better.

But 1986 was better than either of those. So you are wrong.

But you redeem yourself with 1973, so aren’t always wrong.
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Old 19 Dec 2020, 22:05 (Ref:4023972)   #113
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Hey guys, I know a fantastic place that sells rose-tinted spectacles.
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Old 19 Dec 2020, 22:09 (Ref:4023974)   #114
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Hey guys, I know a fantastic place that sells rose-tinted spectacles.
The syntax of the underlying metaphor of my post.
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Old 19 Dec 2020, 22:15 (Ref:4023975)   #115
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Hey guys, I know a fantastic place that sells rose-tinted spectacles.


Do they also sell bridges to those who believe we will see V12's in Formula again?
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Old 19 Dec 2020, 22:17 (Ref:4023976)   #116
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The syntax of the underlying metaphor of my post.
I'd have noticed that if I'd realised there was another page!

I know I wrote years ago that everyone fixates on the era they first adored F1, and this thread illustrates it *perfectly*.

My son has fallen in love with F1 through no act of mine; he think Lando/George/Carlos/Charles and their social media antics are brilliant and he's been sucked in through that. He will forever identify this as his own golden era.

He doesn't give a flying one whether the cars are powered by stupendously complex PUs, V12 engines or horses because F1 for him isn't about the technology. It's about the people. The technology is breathtaking, the cars are breathtakingly fast, the racing (this year) has been brilliant at times but the people involved are more accessible than ever.

Here on 10/10ths we're more or less all old (he's just turned 17). We need to bring his age group along, not put them off with endless bickering over which engine format was "the best".

V12 engines? Meh. Time has moved on.
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Old 19 Dec 2020, 23:02 (Ref:4023989)   #117
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I'd have noticed that if I'd realised there was another page!

I know I wrote years ago that everyone fixates on the era they first adored F1, and this thread illustrates it *perfectly*.

My son has fallen in love with F1 through no act of mine; he think Lando/George/Carlos/Charles and their social media antics are brilliant and he's been sucked in through that. He will forever identify this as his own golden era.

He doesn't give a flying one whether the cars are powered by stupendously complex PUs, V12 engines or horses because F1 for him isn't about the technology. It's about the people. The technology is breathtaking, the cars are breathtakingly fast, the racing (this year) has been brilliant at times but the people involved are more accessible than ever.

Here on 10/10ths we're more or less all old (he's just turned 17). We need to bring his age group along, not put them off with endless bickering over which engine format was "the best".

V12 engines? Meh. Time has moved on.
Sorry to **** on your oh so righteous ******** about F1 but what you're saying is complete crap. A V8/V10/V12 would get a lot more attention from the younger generation. Replace social media with proper pit walkabouts, get the crowd nearer to the action and proper overtakes not drs induced nonsense.
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Old 19 Dec 2020, 23:09 (Ref:4023992)   #118
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I know I wrote years ago that everyone fixates on the era they first adored F1, and this thread illustrates it *perfectly*.
And we all things better than our parents and our children are stupid and don’t know anything.

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Old 19 Dec 2020, 23:11 (Ref:4023993)   #119
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Sorry to **** on your oh so righteous ******** about F1 but what you're saying is complete crap.
If this is how you discuss then 10-10ths is not for you. And that approach has immediately made your viewpoint irrelevant. Please tone it down.

See FAQ.
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Old 20 Dec 2020, 01:28 (Ref:4024024)   #120
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Hey guys, I know a fantastic place that sells rose-tinted spectacles.


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Sorry to **** on your oh so righteous ******** about F1 but what you're saying is complete crap. A V8/V10/V12 would get a lot more attention from the younger generation. Replace social media with proper pit walkabouts, get the crowd nearer to the action and proper overtakes not drs induced nonsense.
The "replace social media" made me laugh out loud. Maybe they should outlaw it. Some type of United Nations mandate maybe?

As to the V8/V10/V12 attracting a younger generation. Maybe, maybe not. There will always be fans of the sound (including myself and my young son). Would this increase interest in F1 by a younger generation? IMHO, probably not.

There are bigger problems to solve. Cheaper to attend races, easier view by a generation that is viewing via PCs not TVs, plus NOT behind paywalls or dedicated apps. And frankly MORE of that oh so evil "social media" which is EXACTLY what brought my son to F1. I think the existing generation is completely out of touch as to what the younger generation wants. I only know because I am watching how it brings my son in.

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Old 20 Dec 2020, 08:04 (Ref:4024065)   #121
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Personally I never enter into the this era was better than that discussions or these cars were better than those precisely for this reason. As said in the very first sentence of the very first post, for me this is not about nostalgia, it's about what tool is best for the job. The nostalgia card is pulled by the people like Toto Wolff who want to defend the status quo. To me the fact that atmospheric V10/V12 sound better is at the very bottom of the reasons why I think they are the best tool for the job. I won't repeat the other reasons, because I have done that too much already in this thread. I'll just repeat the main point: Any tech lessons learned from a 2025 hybrid engine formula would hit the road in 2029 at the earliest (more likely never). By then motorized personal transport sales will have split between electric and cheap atmospheric ICE. So by then hybrids will be less relevant, will be unnecessarily heavy, expensive and complex and yes, they will sound worse as well. Therefore, in my book, they are not the right tool for the job unless perhaps when putting a "greenish spin" on sticking onto a, by then, out of date tech like hybrids is your main concern.
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Old 20 Dec 2020, 10:00 (Ref:4024083)   #122
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I think the 2005 Alonso Renault demo at Abu Dhabi reminded us what we are missing atm, not least the sound of that V10. Still enough to send a chill down your spine, how an engine note should be
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Old 20 Dec 2020, 10:13 (Ref:4024088)   #123
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I think the 2005 Alonso Renault demo at Abu Dhabi reminded us what we are missing atm, not least the sound of that V10. Still enough to send a chill down your spine, how an engine note should be
I wouldn't refer to it as something we are missing. It could equally be said that we're missing V8s, V12s, naturally aspirated or any other form of PU.
It's something different, and an example of what the sport has moved on from. There are probably equally as many F1 followers of the current / next generation who will have seen it is unnecessarily loud and fairly crude in design compared to what we have today.
Don't underestimate the influence on future racing that many have, who think that historic cars such as the 2005 Renault should be kept as exactly that - historic cars for demonstration use or historic racing only.

I've talked to a few people who have only started watching F1 in the last decade - they respect the history of the sport, but don't want the sport to go back to those cars.
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Old 20 Dec 2020, 11:39 (Ref:4024095)   #124
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I've been called some names in my time but I don't think I've ever been referred to as "righteous"

I apologise if referring to V12 engines as "meh" was a trigger for anyone. I loved the V12 cars, just as I loved the DFV and the crazy H and W and flat engines that predated them, and the V10 and inline 12s and all the other things people have run in F1. Some were shockingly bad, some were magical.

But... Those days are gone. By all means advocate for simpler powertrains, but look forward, not back. Or look at now, because despite the massive cost and complexity the PU system they run at the moment is a thing of beauty in terms of the outrageous amount of power it puts out per kilo of fuel converted. And it does it without shredding eardrums (although trust me, up close they make an epic noise, especially when you're so close you can feel the air move around you).

Slightly righteous response follows though: someone who's got or is getting into F1 in this era is going to design and produce the next step change in powertrain technology. Let them look ahead rather than forcing them to look only back.
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Old 20 Dec 2020, 11:42 (Ref:4024096)   #125
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On the topic of weight:


What would a modern V10 engined car, with halo and the 80kg driver/seat combo look like in weight?

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28901

1995 595 kg

2009 605 kg Optional KERS weight 30kg... 20kg of which to fit within existing ballast provision?

2010 620 kg

2013 642 kg Last year of V8 engines

2014 691 kg First year of hybrid V6 engines

2015 702 kg Adjustment for second hybrid year

2017 728 kg Wider wheels and tyres

2018 734 kg Halo introduced

2019 743 kg 80kg driver/seat allowance; halo 'correction'; new wing regulations; rear wing lights

2020 746 kg Agreed-upon adjustment, plus second fuel flow meter 2022 768 kg New rules, including heavier standard parts


So if we take the 605 kg of the V8.
Than add 10 kg for the V10 and the required slightly stronger drivetrain.
Than add 15 kg for the HALO, the 80 kg driver/seat and rear wing lights (743 - 728 kg)
Add a kilo for the 2nd fuel meter
Than add 10 kg to allow cheaper parts.

We end up at 641kg minimum weight. In other words 127 kg (!) lighter than the 2022 regulations.

Now of course this means a much shorter and narrower car with lighter wheels and tyres like before 2017, but I feel that would only beneficiary to the driving and racing.
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