F@#%!! Cart to switch to drop the turbos and fall in line with the IRL.

[Jay]

from tsn.ca:

(Jun 6) CART is set to change its engine formula, bringing it in line with the current specifications used by the Indy Racing League.

According to Robin Miller of ESPN.com, CART's board of directors have agreed to replace their turbocharged motors with normally aspirated engines in time for the 2004 season. Owners are expected to ratify the decision when the series stops in Detroit next week.

Turbocharged engines have been used by CART teams since the series inception in 1979. However, the move to normally aspirated engines is seen as a first step in bridging the gap between CART and the IRL, which currently uses a 3.5-litre engine formula.

Ford, Toyota and Honda - which currently supply engines to CART teams - have had mixed views on the subject of the new formula over the past few months. It's believed that Toyota and Ford are in favour of switching to the normally aspirated engines while Honda has some reservations. Tom Elliott, president of American Honda Motors, tells ESPN.com his company wants to stay in CART, but needs to stay challenged.

"This is a very significant change and our position is that we still favor a turbocharged engine but we are willing to consider a normally-aspirated engine if there's enough latitude for technology," said Elliott, whose engines have won the past five CART championships.

Toyota, which is preparing for Formula One competition in Europe next year, is set to join the IRL series in 2003. Having to build two separate engines for the North American open-wheel series could force them to choose between the IRL and CART. Toyota is committed to supplying CART with engines until 2002.

Bloody Hell! This will mean the end of Cart. I suppose they will now take an entire month off just to visit another old concrete bucket in middle America.

IMO, Cart currently has the best racing formula in the world. Races are close, and there is good open wheel racing. The cars look and sound better than in any other series in the world. If this goes through, I fear that Cart will just turn into the kit-car series that IRL is.

[SevenGrain]

I don't think that it will turn CART into a kit car series because they have left some flexibility in the formula, but it sure is disappionting. The 2.65 turbo formula is an excellent package on road courses, even if it has become a bit too fast for the ovals. CART may even lose Honda over this, as I hear Honda is still contemplating their options. If CART takes this step to get closer to running at Indy, Tony may still screw them with the 25/8 rule or another dirty trick that he may have up his sleeve. But I understand why CART had to do this. There was no way make all three engine suppliers happy, and this way they keep two out of three, Ford and Toyota, and they don't entirely alienate Honda. But it still bites the big one...

[Niall]

While Honda have said that they wanted the 1.8 Turbo option it is also rumoured that Ford want nothing to do with a 3.5 litre N/A engine.

On the other hand Toyota are developing an engine for the Indy Racing League. it isn't inconcievalbe that this same block could be used for the CART engine which would contain no pre set rev limiter.

But seriously. What difference does this really make to any of the fans. Most CART fans like the Turbo's for none other reason but that they ar used to them. Most F1 fans didn't want to see the Turbo's go in 89 but soon we realised that they weren't so much of a loss. Anyway the N/A engines sound much better. Anyway, ask ART fans what a turbo is and i bet half of them wouldn't be sure.

Essentially how can a different engine formula hurt the racing. There will be a drop in power, but this can't really hurt racing.

THe only visible difference will be teh introduction of an airbox. Although I do think the cars would look better without them, I wouldn't be too bothered about them.

Overall, I think this is a good move. Racing Series are supposed to mirror road cars but in a more refined and tech advanced way. F1 got rid of Turbo's as road cars were not using Turbo's as once was foretold for the future. Again I think it was a good choice.

Niall

[SevenGrain]

About a month ago, I spoke with several of the drivers about this very issue, the 3.5 litre N/A engine. And Shinji Nakano actually put in best when he said (In broken Shijni-English) "Everyone will be up in arms and say, this is not good, but after two or three months, no one will care, it will be no problem."

(Shinji also said that a 3.5 would not provide enough power on road courses and so did Helio, Gil, Adrian, and Max Papis. But Andretti actually liked the idea of the 3.5)

[mac]

I've got no problem with the engine change, as long as the cars remain fast - particularly on street and road courses. The current formula is already heavy and uses old-fashioned technology (compared with formula one). As long as lap times on road courses and street circuits remain similar I don't have a problem with it.

[Crash Test]

Don't the cars desperately need to be slowed anyways? So long as the car makers don't spend outrageous amounts of money on it (which I'm certain they would...) it should be managable. I think if anything, the racing will improve, how could that possibly be a bad thing???

[mac]

The cars need to be slowed on some ovals, but definitely not on road circuits.

[Crash Test]

But then that comes back to the same old point- if the cars were 2-3 seconds a lap slower, would you notice it? Of course not... If they slow them down , one of the obvious side effects is closer racing.

[Ray Bell]

What's happening with fuel while this goes on?

Fuel consumption rules with the turbos have been a factor in races in CART for years, but these engines shouldn't be so thirsty?

[Crash Test]

All they do these days to make fuel a factor in the races is limit the amount they give to each car. So with the less thirstier engines they would simply ration off less fuel to the teams.

[Ray Bell]

The smaller tankage will surely help balance the car weight issue a bit... or with the same size tanks there may be more strategy options.

[domaza]

Actually I don't care about engine as far the racecars go fast and races are intresting - like in CART just now. But I do care about the looking... current chasses are good not like these skunny-cart type IRL chasses. Will CART continue with same chasses!?

[Liz]

Well, Niall, to some of us it DID make a difference when the turbos left F1. And it will make a big difference when they leave Champ Cars, too. If I want to watch handbaggy kit cars labor around the track making noises like lawn mowers, there is already a series in place where I can see that.

Fortunately this can be changed - after all, Panoz has finally admitted that their sissy baby handbaggy new engines are dogs and are going back to the manly man engines of yore. So perhaps Champ Cars can do the same.

And to say that most people are too ignorant to know the difference is about as wrong as saying that most people who saw "Drivel" didn't know that real Champ Cars don't fly unless their wings are on upside down.

[KC]

I think we are all jumping the gun a little. Honda, Ford/Cosworth and Toyota are three of the best engine builders in motor racing today. The technology they have gained from racing in CART has seen them all produce engines capable of reaching 17,000 rpm with mechanical valve springs, the production of near 1000 horsepower in qualifying trim, and reliability for long 500 mile races. A huge portion of this knowledge will transfer straight into the new normal aspirated engines. The IRL cars produce around 650 horsepower at a mandated 10,000 rpm, the CART machines will not be mandated to this low limit for road courses and should be able to produce in the 800 to 850 horsepower range based upon current technology. the rev limiter could be used to effectively reduce the ultra-high speeds CART reaches on the speedways however. This along with aero-restrictors should be enough to see CART through the next decade with a stable and efficient powerplant. I do think the 3.5 liter engines will ultimately prove to be more thirsty than the existing smaller turbo units, but we should see more flexibility in fuel economy.

The normally aspirated engines should sound similar to the existing F1 powerplants as their range will be in the 14,000 to 15,000 rpm range. They should also produce a much broader torque curve for better mid-range for road racing. I think the drivers expressing their discontent that the new package will not be as fast on road courses are thinking they will be running the existing IRL powerplants.

The other aspect of this engine change is that it will not go into effect until 2004. This time should give Ford, Honda, and Toyota a chance to properly develop their first generation of engines.

The questions I have are how long will Oldsmobile (becoming Chevrolet in 2002) stick around? GM has a history in the US of bailing out when the competition gets tough. Will Infiniti/Nissan step up to do battle with Toyota in 2003 in the IRL or continue to produce lackluster powerplants than very few will run? If they do not step up their program the loss of face in Japan to Toyota may force them to quit altogether. Will Honda stick around? I think they will ultimately prove to be one of the best normally aspirated engine builders in the world, but quitting now would be a way out to concentrate on their F1 package. Who can say.

[Niall]

Liz: But what difference would it make no matter what engine they use.

if there is good racing and a respectibley high lap time (to show it as a premier racing series and not just a feeder series) then any engine formula would be good.

I'll be honest with you though. I never went to a GP in the Turbo era so I don't really know what they sounded like in real life.

Niall

[bella]

so what's stopping anyone bolting an old f1 engine into a cart chassis from then on?

[Ray Bell]

Fuel requirement, for one. The CART rules specify Methanol or something, while F1 runs on petrol. Compression ratios can go up, injection would have to provide greater flow rates.

Then there's the valve springs, I assume CART will retain their restriction on these, while F1 is universally using the compressed air. It's a 'six of one, half a dozen of the other' thing... the valve spring development must cost money to have got them to the revs they have, while there is a containment still there to keep bottom end costs down. On the other hand, F1 has long ago perfected the compressed air system and it gives incredible reliability, a kind I believe would be hard to duplicate with springs and also requiring less expensive (and less overall?) maintenance.

Of course, there may be factors in there I don't completely understand, but that would be my take on it.

Also, are CART sticking to V8 configuration... long time since there was a V8 in F1, the one Senna used in 93... I think.

[Niall]

Ray: The last V8 used in F1 was an old Zetec engine used by Tyrrell and Minardi in 97 I think.

After that they started using old Ford Cosworth Engines.

Niall

[LynxSat.com]

I think CART should take a few more rules from the IRL, to quote the commentator on last nights race "when was the last time you saw open wheeled cars go three wide through a [24 deg. banked] corner at 215mph?"

The Texas IRL race (apart from the shunts) showed what open wheeled racing is all about, close & fast - I think it was probably the best US based race I've seen in over a year, the last was MA & JPM going at it in Michigan last year.

CART is fast becomming like Forumla Bernie, boring and no overtaking, take the last race as an example, why did HCN & KB crash at the first corner?, 'cos they both knew that just like F1 who came out first would win, and he did.

Does it really matter if the engine is hi-tech or low-tech? People like close racing, not processions...

Go on, flame me

[Crash Test]

No no, I fully agree! But hey, if they bolt in a naturally aspirated engine and it turns out to be a lemon, then you can critise it, and then you can go and watch F1...

[LynxSat.com]

Yea sure, my point is they also need to look at the aero packages, I agree that a naturally aspirated engine won't make the racing better and will turn it into F1.

[Joe Fan]

A smart move! This is a step towards some kind of unification between CART and the IRL, which I expect will be in the form of an American (IRL) and International (CART) division within a few years. Besides the cars are getting way to fast, motorsports has outgrown turbos. The next thing they should dump are wings as motorsports has long outgrown these too.

[Robin Plummer]

What would be better is to drop the IRL. There is no room for two open wheeled premier series in the US. Get back the Indy 500(But it doesn't matter if they don't as I don't rate all the hype about the place). It's only a bloody race not a war grave. If you race at the California Speedway for next 80 years is will be just as historic. This will attract back Mercedes Benz engines and Goodyear tyres. Hopefully Swift, Penske and G-Force too making chassis. Then you will get a genuine rival to F1 (Villneuve no longer rates CART as good as it was when he drove). And leave the engine's alone, Methanol is less pollutant than pump petrol and leave the turbo's why has all racing got to rid it's selves of one of the best inventions in history i.e. power from waste gases! And a technology, which is used on many road cars. It also has the advantage of driver skill, balancing the throttle when the boost comes in (there is no traction control) and keep 2.65V8's that rev high. When was the last time on a road course that you saw an engine explode like they do in F1???

If you stick a 3.5 V8 non-turbo engine it won't be as reliable if you want to rev it high enough to get decent power outputs and it will be just like F1. The only reason F1 dropped turbos is they were too efficient and too powerful what a terrible reason to stop using them. Pop off valves control things and I can't see metal valve springs withstanding 20,000rpm unless you make them out of some exotic metal.

One other rule, don't p*** off Honda they are too high profile and influential. More choice in the formula is better.

Doe's any one agree??

[MaxSport]

While a few CART fanatics think that going to a 3.5 liter n/a motor
is a terrible thing, the people who race in CART don't seem to have as much trouble with it.

AutoRacing1.com currently has an interesting conversation with Michael Andretti at Portland. He doesn't think it will matter. In fact, he is for the formula if it means easily being able to run at Indy.

Of course, what could he know about it?

KM

[floid2000]

Don't worry..Hopefully , as Cart dies on the proverbial vine (mired in expensive trips to obscure tracks in countries where Champ car interest is casual at best)like Germany and England ,the place with eigth mile drag racing.
The IRL will get lots more sponser money(unless nascar gets it all first) . All the IRL is lacking is money. I just hope they run a few road races (maybe Laguna Seca , Watkins Glen, and a couple of street races as well as the usual "Cement Buckets".thanks for the new word Seven Grain.
As far as places like Talladega.It sure sounds exciting to me but,the first thing you'd have to do is fit all the drivers for G-suits.Can you imagine ? I'm guessing speeds in the 260 range with a Cart set up.Maybe 240 for an Irl car.