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Old 23 Sep 2018, 16:41 (Ref:3852211)   #451
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I don't think he really means they should make the step up, but rather using it as an example - it's unlikely any of the IndyCar teams would be able to jump to F1 budget level. That's not because IndyCar teams aren't at the right level, but rather F1 budgets are out of control. Nobody can make that step up.

Of the last 4 new F1 entries, only 1 has survived. And that one required the backing of a massively rich businessman and Ferrari support to do so. 25% survival isn't a great hit rate, it has to be said.
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Old 23 Sep 2018, 17:26 (Ref:3852223)   #452
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But in audience terms - and therefore in sponsorship reach - as well as prestige, IndyCar is a million miles behind Formula 1. Who watches IndyCar in China, or Japan, or Russia, or Africa? How many even follow it in the UK, where there’s a strong motorsport tradition and well-subscribed grass roots?
Prestige? There is the 500, if memory serves me right the oldest car race on the planet.

I have no idea if they watch IndyCar in China, do they even watch F1 in China? Whenever the Chinese GP is held, the stands are always fairly empty during FP and qualifying but are relatively full come race day. It's been suggested the crowd is bused in.

I wouldn't know about Africa either. Motorsport/F1 was primarily centered around South Africa, though I'm not too sure if that ever expanded to Djibouti or Kinshasa. I'm sure IndyCar has its fair share of Japanese fans, they like their motorsport and now have a 500 winner. Maybe not so much with Russia, though Mikhail Aleshin raced with Schmidt Peterson Motorsports up until last year.

Akropovic hits the nail on the head as to whether IndyCar teams would be able to jump to F1 budget level, as F1 budgets are out of control.
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Old 23 Sep 2018, 18:39 (Ref:3852248)   #453
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Who watches IndyCar in China, or Japan, or Russia, or Africa?
I have no idea how many people actually watch in Russia, but when looking for streams to watch the Inycar races, most of the times I watch a Russian stream. They have two audio channels (one Russian, the other one the official US broadcast audio) and *no* commercial breaks. Besides, the video quality is excellent most of the times.

If the races are broadcast in Russia, that means there has to be some kind of interest in it, at least ...
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Old 23 Sep 2018, 19:21 (Ref:3852261)   #454
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They might not do F1 so much, but they do illegal a lot.
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Old 23 Sep 2018, 20:05 (Ref:3852284)   #455
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I think George Russell is partly correct.Formula 1 does need more teams,but not just one or two.The problem created by the rule changes of the last few years has meant that engines and gearboxes have become ridiculously expensive because they need to undergo vast amounts of durability testing prior to racing because of the penalties for exceeding the permitted number of units.Which makes an engine supply contract expensive.Designing a gearbox from scratch likewise.

I would prefer to see teams that can raise the entry fee and build a car that passes the crash tests appearing in droves.It would give the talented drivers currently stalled in their career progression somewhere to race.It would also give employment to any personnel at risk of redundancy from cost cutting proposals.If the cars are safe,its up to their entrants and designers to get them through pre-qualifying and then into the race.Why shouldn't we go back to the days of 40 cars arriving?Oh yes-it might dilute the income streams of the incumbents.It might also keep them on their toes.And it might use the services of messrs Ocon and Russell.
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Old 23 Sep 2018, 22:13 (Ref:3852311)   #456
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IndyCar runs a spec chassis with a spec body kit, with a choice of 2 spec engines.
F1 needs a team to own every aspect of the IP in their cars, and by nature of the competition, bring new parts along regularly to improve performance.

Chalk and cheese in terms of whole of product complexity
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Old 23 Sep 2018, 22:30 (Ref:3852313)   #457
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IndyCar runs a spec chassis with a spec body kit, with a choice of 2 spec engines.
F1 needs a team to own every aspect of the IP in their cars, and by nature of the competition, bring new parts along regularly to improve performance.

Chalk and cheese in terms of whole of product complexity
F1 teams don't own every aspect of the IP in their cars, they "hire" engines/PUs, from who ever they are affiliated with. What's changed is you can't hire a Nicholson DFV, or buy a chassis from MARCH and go racing anymore. In that respect, IndyCar as it now is, is like F1 in the '70s, though I would say more like F5000.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 12:34 (Ref:3852600)   #458
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Another domino falls: Giovinazzi confirmed at Sauber:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/g...-2019/3183233/
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 12:34 (Ref:3852601)   #459
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https://www.sauberf1team.com/news/an...uber-f1-team-2

So an ice cream with carbon fiber topping it is for next year.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 12:35 (Ref:3852602)   #460
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This leaves Williams (x2), Toro Rosso (x2), Force India (x2) and Haas (x2) with seats to fully confirm.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 13:08 (Ref:3852611)   #461
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Glad to see Giovinazzi given another chance. I'm sure he can do well, he's very talented
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 13:41 (Ref:3852619)   #462
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It's assumed that the top teams like Ferrari,Mercedes and Red Bull operate on ridiculous budgets of maybe £300 to £500million per year.

What doesn't appear quite so clear is how much revenue they receive each year via constructors points, race victories, podiums,Concorde agreement, sponsorship etc,etc.

Although their budgets do seem outrageous, does anyone know whether their nett spend (income less expenditure) might actually amount to little more than a few million.

Is it even possible, that Ferrari in particular,may actually turn a profit on a successful F1 season?
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 13:45 (Ref:3852621)   #463
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Glad to see Giovinazzi given another chance. I'm sure he can do well, he's very talented
If it was solely Vasseur's choice, Vandoorne would have got that drive.

In fact i'd rather have seen the Italian joined by the Belgian, and not a venerable Finn.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 14:01 (Ref:3852623)   #464
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Ericsson as third driver / brand ambassador for Sauber. Obviously his cash didn't trump the Ferrari option to stick a driver in the second car.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 14:09 (Ref:3852624)   #465
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happy for AG and glad to see him get another shot at F1.

all in all i think things are pretty good for young drivers at the moment and with a number of seats still potentially up for grabs the notable exceptions may still find opportunities.

maybe not next year but resurrected careers looks to be a thing now!

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Is it even possible, that Ferrari in particular,may actually turn a profit on a successful F1 season?
i recall reading a long while back that between their historical payments, unique sponsorship deal with Philip Morris, and their merchandise sales that the team turned a profit each year.

that i think was back in the schumi days(so yeah that would have also included performance based prize money)...given the new heights budgets are reaching and lack of success im not sure if that holds true anymore....although with their customer supply deals maybe they have found a way to keep up with their own escalating budget.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 14:20 (Ref:3852626)   #466
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I can recall from a number of articles that appeared recently, maybe a couple or possibly a very few years ago, that if Ferrari just turned up at every race for the course of a season but didn't actually race properly, then they would still get more money from FOM than if one of the bottom 6 teams would receive even if they won every race that season.


OK, I fully accept that that may possibly be a huge exaggeration, but Ferrari does, for a fact, receive a considerably larger slice of the FOM money cake than any other team on the grid.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 14:29 (Ref:3852629)   #467
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Although I've no proof, I'm of the view that certainly Ferrari, and maybe Mercedes, are making a profit from their F1 activities.

It's the only way to explain their ridiculous annual budgets and why both are resistant to wholesale changes.

Before looking into budget caps, I think you need to look at each teams NETT annual expenditure rather than their total annual budget.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 17:02 (Ref:3852650)   #468
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Although I've no proof, I'm of the view that certainly Ferrari, and maybe Mercedes, are making a profit from their F1 activities.

It's the only way to explain their ridiculous annual budgets and why both are resistant to wholesale changes.

Before looking into budget caps, I think you need to look at each teams NETT annual expenditure rather than their total annual budget.
I can't remember where I read this, but I believe Ferrari makes more sales off of licensing merchandise than it does cars. So if you want to look at it another way - Ferrari sells sportscars to enable its business of selling cheap crap.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 17:31 (Ref:3852654)   #469
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Ferrari sells sportscars to enable its business of selling cheap crap.
From the prices I have seen in various Ferrari merchandise outlets I think you mean expensive crap.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 17:53 (Ref:3852659)   #470
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Merch is a great way to make money, bands have been doing it for decades.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 00:08 (Ref:3852687)   #471
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I can’t believe how little confidence Ferrari have in Leclerc. They’ve put two drivers in Sauber so that they can replace him mid season.

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Old 26 Sep 2018, 04:52 (Ref:3852708)   #472
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So with 8 seats left, we have the following drivers in the running, all but confirmed, or mentioned in passing. Not sure if I've missed anyone;

Grosjean - needs to finish the season strongly to get another Haas gig, but with GIO and LEC snapped up, he would feel slightly safer.

Magnussen - all but confirmed at Haas.

Stroll - looks destined for RPFI

Sirotkin - a second season at Williams is likely.

Perez - looks set to stay at RPFI

Ocon - the most talented 'free agent', albehim not a free agent at all. FI a very long shot, as is Williams. Won't go to Haas or STR. Sadly a Mercedes third driver role looks the most likely option.

Hartley - the silence from STR is deafening. Fully expect to see two 'new' drivers again at the team.

Kyvat - seems to be in the frame for a STR return.

Wehrlein, Vandoorne - both could be an option for STR.

Kubica - $$ looks to play a role here. Would be nice to see him get another go.

Russell - Williams looking less and less likely, but Mercedes would be wise to send him there.

Ericsson - committed to a third driver role at Sauber which obviously means his coin won't be taken to Williams.

At least 12 drivers for 8 seats.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 10:21 (Ref:3852741)   #473
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So with 8 seats left, we have the following drivers in the running, all but confirmed, or mentioned in passing. Not sure if I've missed anyone
I think Markelov was mentioned as a possibility for Williams some time ago. Not sure if he is still a contender or if that rumor has slowly died.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 11:09 (Ref:3852746)   #474
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First ones with a superlicence and cash at Williams, sadly.

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Old 26 Sep 2018, 16:40 (Ref:3852807)   #475
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I don't know. Markelov is probably not the next Alonso, but I think he may have some qualities.
He has won 8 of his last 42 (F2) races, and currently has the most wins of everybody over the 2017 and 2018 seasons combined.

Sure, he has been around GP2 for a while before that, so he has experience at that level, but he has won a few where others did not.

He seems to be pretty good at tire management, which is a quality that can be very handy in today's F1 as well - especially if the characteristics of the F2 tire and the F1 tire are similar.

Others are good at fuel management (Will Power in Indycar for example). Would he be less successful if fuel management would be of zero importance because of a rule change and would other who are bad at it come to the fore?

You never know what a driver brings (or not), even when he has (a lot of) funding.
Some may bring a significant part of your budget and still deliver decent results (see Perez). You just never know.
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