Da Matta out - Zonta in ? (now confirmed)

[Redlake27]

There are reports on Grand Prix.com that Da Matta will be replaced by Zonta for the rest of the year.

Whilst there isn't much to choose between the two Brazilians, could we read into this that Toyota are freeing up a seat to get Ralf in the car this season?

[esorniloc]

Williams didn't let Montoya go early, so why would they let Ralf go early?

The two subs have not done wonders in the past 3 races!

[Super Tourer]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns13322.html

Link to the story.

[spider]

Well, he's been a tad lacklustre hasn't he. He hasn't been dire, nor spectacular, just a case of making the numbers up. Been disappointed with him to be honest. Chances of him getting the Williams ride are nil, surely!?

[Super Tourer]

I doubt he is on the list!

[mcurtis26]

Perhaps da Matta is going back to the states this season rather than next? Possible an extra newman haas car?

[esorniloc]

Originally posted by mcurtis26
Perhaps da Matta is going back to the states this season rather than next? Possible an extra newman haas car?

The end of the Grand Prix story above says that he isn't interested in going back to the US as he has done what he can there.

[mcurtis26]

I think da Matta will struggle to get a good ride in Europe unless he gets the 2nd william seat which seems unlikely.

[EERO]

If the new TOYOTA really is as good as Panis' suggests, then Zonta may be able to redeem himself. Frankly, I always thought he was enourmously talented and deserved a better chance than he got from BAR.

Too bad for Da Matta though, but aside from those glorious 18 or so laps at Silverstone last year, he's never convinced.

[spider]

Toyota have so far had 4 'good' drivers, but none have been particularly inspiring at the wheel of the machines, infact besides perhaps Silverstone 03, i can't think of any inspiring drives where their drivers have transcended their machinery...? Poor Da Matta, but he's been just plain average, and if the Toyota is as quick as MG reckons, then CDM's performance at Hockenheim was plain poor - and MG's post-race comments hinted at that.

[Kirk]

I too thought Da Matta would fare better with Toyota, but to be frank, the Toyota team has been a big disappointment as well. Da Matta had asked for clarification of Toyota's plans sooner rather than later and seems his wish has been granted and I can see him returning to NA, likely back to Champ but IRL is also a possibility.
As for Ralf being released early by Williams, that would make sense for all involved, but I doubt it will happen. Is Da Matta on William's short list for 2005, I doubt that also, is he even interested in remaining in F1, not sure. It must be disheartening after his success in Champ racing. But F1 is unpredictable isn't it; a test drive with Williams cannot be discounted IMO.

[racefanatic]

I don't understand - where else could Cristiano go? I wish with all my heart that he'd come back to ChampCar, but if he's not interested in returning... I just hope he gets a good ride.

Why can't Toyota just keep the same drivers and engineers for a while and let them grow together? They're a new team; they need time to develop and they need consistency.

[darcym]

Zonta deserved more of a chance with BAR ??? rubbish he got 2 years and was destroyed by JV

Da-Matta was picked up by toyota marketing machine...no other reason. They publicly stated this (not word for word) that when they hired him it was because of his pull in the USA, trying to get some cars sold in the states.

He's wasted a seat for too long.

I've said this all along, even if your a champcar master, a young F3 hotshot, or a Formula ford hotshot, if you get int he car for your first race and your not on the pace of the car....your out. All this second chance or a "learning year" in F1 is rubbish. If you come in and your not dragging the best out of the car...your out, this is the pinical of motorsport. If your given the option to test or race and you choose race before your ready...its your own fault.

By this theory

Sato
Da-Matta
Zonta
Klein
both at minardi
Pantano

should be out.

harsh but fair

[BootsOntheSide]

Maybe Williams have written off this season and decided to settle for 5th, as this will give them the right to run a Friday tester (Gené) next year? In that case they would have little reason to keep Ralf.

Maybe da Matta could sort out a deal with Jordan in this case, or do a few CART races to see if he still enjoys it. Given that the rival IRL series adds road races next year, has most of the top drivers and would represent something of a new challenge, I think he should consider that if nothign come sup in F1.

[spider]

I agree they need consistency, but 2 years is enough to at least have the odd flash of brilliance, and you don't get that from Panis or Da Matta. Toyota are looking to really challenge and are being ruthless, but Panis and Da Matta are never going to get you up the grid. If the Toyota is as quick as the team feel, and DM is trundling around behind Klien and Massa, then you've got to ask questions haven't you?! Ralf and Trulli is a huge step forward over Panis and Da Matta IMO...

[Redlake27]

Originally posted by darcym
All this second chance or a "learning year" in F1 is rubbish. By this theory

Sato
Da-Matta
Zonta
Klein
both at minardi
Pantano

should be out.

harsh but fair

I tend to agree - but there are exceptions. Barrichello was trounced by Irvine at Jordan, Button was shaded by Fisi and Trulli at Benetton - Renault. Hill was beaten by Prost and Senna. All bounced back to greater things.

However, before I get off thread. I think Da Matta is overrated. Zonta was often a match for JV at BAR, but his Jordan stand-in drives a couple of years ago were dire.

Toyota should do everything they can to get Ralf early. Though Williams need points, they aren't going to want to let BMW secrets go to Toyota. Pizzonia should get another couple of races at Williams before they decide who will team with Webber next year. (Trulli would be my choice)

[darcym]

I don't mean "gets beat by team mate" I mean gets the best out of the car, prost was ahead of hill more, however hill was never far from his pace, fisco beat button at benatton - but again fisco was always 18th button 19th - its not like he was 10th and button 19th.

Button was on the pace of the car in his first williams race....and continued. He had a bad year at benneton, but always rung the neck of the car. It was clear it was the car not him.

looking at the names above they should be getting more from the car.

[Snrub]

I still believe CDM is better than he's shown at Toyota. I would disagree that the leading of laps last year was anythign special, just pit sequence. We don't really see when the back markers put in smoking laps relative to their cars, we're lucky if we see the odd pass, but just because they're out front doesn't mean they're doing well.

Sort of off topic, but the comments regarding there being no such thing as a learning curve is pure non-sense. Some people take a bit longer to get use to things than others. NO driver will ever be on the pace in their first time in an F1 car let alone consistant. (I'm sure someone could point to some test results, but those are pretty meaningless unless we know how the tests were being conducted, etc.) Look at Truli, he's still a bit of an unknown but he's clearly getting better and better. Button looked good in his first year in F1, but was still destroyed by Ralf. JPM looked better than Ralf overall in his first year, but had some sketchy rookie-ish performances. Kimi was beaten by Heidfeld. Under the "harsh but fair" rules we'd have a bunch of empty cars sitting on the grid.

[darcym]

Some people take a bit longer to get use to things than others

Therefore they are not ready for F1, do more testing, do more lower formula stuff. when you sit in an F1 car...you should be ready to race. This is not a learning formula...this is the top step of the motorsport world.

NO driver will ever be on the pace in their first time in an F1 car let alone consistant.

Kimi was on the pace in his first test for Sauber at Fioano. I didn't say there first time in the car I said when they sit in the car to race, they must be ready to do so, not learning while racing.

JV first race for Williams stuck it on pole.
Irvine first race for Jordan rang the neck out of it and got a good position
Shumacher in the Jordan - on and beyond the pace of the car.
Buttons first race - on the pace of the williams after a messed up qualifying.

So having a learning year in F1 is nonsense.

put it in context of any other job, (as at the end of the day it is a job to these guys) a Doctor (extreme example) he goes to college for 4 years, becomes a junior doctor learns from other doctors then practices on his own.

This is the equivilent of karting for a couple of years, formula ford, Formula renault, Formula 3 F1 (for example) those who jump from Formula renault or F3 before they are ready and are not on the pace of the F1 car they are driving should be out. If a Dr jumped from junior Dr to senior suegeon before he was ready....would he get a second chance.

[darcym]

Also snrub -

I did say it wasn't important to beat your teammate as a judge, but to be on the pace of the car is what I was aiming for. Ralph was a mess in his first year at Jordan...but he was quick and on the pace of the car he just needed to calm down. Sato on the other hand was a mess in the jordan...and not quick either (for example) so was clearly not ready. After 3 years of racing/testing F1 cars....he is still only just getting it together, therefore should not have made it by my earlier statment - which I stand by.

Kimi was beaten by Nick fair and square, but as I said he wa on the pace of the Sauber and showed his potential.You will always learn and improve, but learning the trade eg: the basics of driving the car and being quick should not be done at this level.

I know its harsh, but look at the **** thats in F1 at the moment, not exactly the ultimate drivers championship is it. Half the grid are there because they have a wad of cash, not because they are quick

[Adam43]

Originally posted by darcym
All this second chance or a "learning year" in F1 is rubbish. If you come in and your not dragging the best out of the car...your out, this is the pinical of motorsport. If your given the option to test or race and you choose race before your ready...its your own fault.

By this theory

Button

Originally posted by darcym
should be out.

harsh but fair

It's difficult to judge. I guess only the team can decide.

Anyway, we are all risking taking it off topic.

Da Matta, I'd be suprised if he didn't finish the season. I don't think he has been too bad either, perhaps coming to a new team hasn't helped, but as darcym says there are no excuses in F1.

[Don K]

Originally posted by darcym
Kimi was on the pace in his first test for Sauber at Fioano. I didn't say there first time in the car I said when they sit in the car to race, they must be ready to do so, not learning while racing.
...
So having a learning year in F1 is nonsense.

Kimi was beaten by Heidfeld in his first year, and by Coulthard in his second year. - But he came back to beat Coulthard in his third year.

Button was beaten by Ralf in his first year, and he strugled at Renault. - But he came back, and now he is very close to the top.

Montoya was beaten by Ralf in his first year. - But he came back to beat Ralf in his second and third year.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by darcym
Sato
Da-Matta
Zonta
Klein
both at minardi
Pantano

should be out.

harsh but fair

Sato? Was on the pace in the Jordan and is most definatly on the pace of the BAR. Didn't have much problems topping the testing time sheets in 2003 either.

Da Matta? Well, wasn't really trailing Panis in 2003, now was he?

Zonta? Was a victim of Villeneuve at BAR. It is good that BAR had enough of Villeneuve come 2003, so he didn't have the same chance with Button. Allthough he did try!

Klien? Seems underrated to me. In this topic http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=57866 it's discussed that Klien is rather close to Webber on qualifying times. Surely, when the pace of the car is the sole criterium, than qualifying is the session to look at.

Both at Minardi? How can you tell? Bruni seems to be having the upperhand, but Baumgartner isn't that far away. How can you tell they're both not on the pace of the PS04? Can you tell me on what pace the PS04 should be run? No really, I'm curious.

Pantano? Was thrown into the Jordan and his first GP-weekend without any testing. Well, some laps at Silverstone if I'n not mistaken. He was confirmed on februari 13th and Jordan didn't do much testing after that. It's not really realistic to expect him to be up there with Heidfeld right away on tracks he doesn't know and Heidfeld does. But as the season progresses Pantano seems to be picking up the pace.

I'm not saying you should be more sympathetic with rookiedrivers, I'm saying you should be realistic.

[f1manoz]

I'll be surprised if da Matta is given the boot before season's end. His F1 journey has thus far been mostly disappointing, and once he's out the door this year, I don't see any other rides popping up.

And with his unwillingness to return to the United States, I don't see where he can end up...

[Kicking-back]

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