Toleman TG280 (and Lola T850 & T860)

[allenbrown]

There was a guy at Goodwood on Friday taking intricate measurements and making detailed drawings of the Matra MS80. I wonder if that was for a 3D model.

I'd done such a lovely job, I didn't have the heart to tell him that the car he was measuring was the third of two.

[driftwood]

allen i have 2 more in the cupboard what colour shall i paint them!!
re Toleman yes Kurt ha smumbled about a car
still cannot see much point in building a replica of car that had 12 offical t280s made then another 5-10 made via lola as t281 cars!
i have many fotos of toleman cars with body off if u want to have fotos PM me yr address and i can mail them to u
Derek
if u want a real T280 call me i have 3 cars u can have and ive sold the most important t280 ever built 4 years ago

[kurtiejjj]

Help, confusion here Tom I only want to make a small scale model in whatever scale it will be 1:18, 1:43 etc. Mostly because there isn't one at the moment and I want to see how all that CNCing works.

@drifty: Of cource I'm not going to build a replica that would be ridiculous That's why I contacted you.

[driftwood]

I must admit i have not seen toleman models
seen some march 782 792 822 models from Oynx and Tamiya

[kurtiejjj]

Originally Posted by driftwood

I must admit i have not seen toleman models
seen some march 782 792 822 models from Oynx and Tamiya

True that why I want to see what I can do with some old fashioned skills + Tom's 3D drawing + a CNC machine. Toleman seems to be a good first choice because of it's clean body shape and information available.

[TomDawson]

Sorry about that, didn't really understand what I was designing because I'd be drawing it full scale anyway then scaling it down using the miracle of computers. I put replica because I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be working or just for show or just a model...

[driftwood]

Toleman TG280 cars
C1: Works 1980 - Colombo 1981 - Hinton 1985. Retained 2003.
C2: Works Warwick 1980 - Hopfer 1981 .82 Pedrazza then to Hungary
C3: DS 1980 - Rothengatter DS spare 1981 ? Can-Am ...Eddie wachs?
C4: Works 1980 .Henton now in Oz..
C5: Works 1980 Hentons ( 2nd half of season car) - Crawford 1981 - Crompton .Rowan Clifford ...now Terry Fisher 2006
C6: DS 1980 .-Stohr Can-Am ...Eddie wachs?
C7: Japan 1980 ...Takahashi races thru 81 & 82 still there in museum [COLOR="royalblue"]also 2 toleman cars race in 1984 2 drivers have cars with BMW power Sakamoto twice & Fujiwara once both run at the last round ( so where did the other car come from?
C8: Zakspeed/Ertl 1980 ...
C9: Works turbo test car 1980Gartner in 81
C10 Cramer 1981 ...Jimmy Jack then as Lancia GT car for McGaughay 1985
C11 Richard Fry hillclimbing with FGB gearbox 2.8 Hart power
T290 cars
1 to Richard Ames Colin Stone Bill Hall sold to Perkins then broken up remains of car sold to USA 2007
1 to David Render sold to usa 2007
1 to Nigel Bigwood tony Marsh
1 ?? now in a a garage
1981
San remo enter TG280 #1 for Rossi
Sewi Hopfer races #2
Jo Gartner races Toleman TG280#9
Wyatt stanley races TG280which car is this a DS car?
Jim Crawford Plygrange racing - 05 henton car
DS enter #3 for Londono -Bridge
Johansson appears at Mantorp park in toleman not Lola car #4? or mis print for #3?
Japan #7 for Advan Takahashi with Hart engine
Rothengatter races toleman with Hart engne 2nd to last round then
last race of season Acheson appears in a Toleman with Honda enginewhere did this come from?

Missing cars
it appears Eddie Wachs may have had 3 Toleman can am cars ( I believe he buys the Docking Spitzley team cars of 2 Lola T850 and 1 toleman TG280 or 2 TG280 and 1 Lola? ) he retains 2 today and 1 car is racing in usa as F2 car with no plate but it came with some body panels with livery from the can am cars

Jan Theulke races TG290 in 1983 entered by Erwin Derichs poss Gartner#9 car?

Romans
2 cars built 1 destroyed 1 remains with John Fellows 2007

Lola T850
factory records show six T850s and two T860s:

HU850/1 - Japan (Nova Eng) - Hoshino only 1 car ran all year in 81 butNakano & Suzuki race in 82
HU850/2 - Docking Spitzley - Acheson
HU850/3 - Docking Spitzley -Johansoon
HU850/4 - Japan (Nova Eng)- Hoshino only 1 car ran all year 81 but Nakano & Suzuki race in 82However no races in 83 and most of 84 but Tasumi races a car once
HU850/5 - San Remo- Pradini in 81 - Del Castello in 82 Dacco in 83
HU850/6 - Mader-Schnarwiler poss Hagenbauer in 82?

HU860/1 - Haas (25 June)
HU860/2 - Peter Williamson (16 Sep) now in Oz
Docking Spitzley
enter cars in 1982 as DS1#2 & 3 for Tassin & Rossi but also run Lola 850 hu 2 as well and Toleman Tg280#3 is a spare?
Is the DS1 a Lola car with mods or a new car? as they had T850 Hu2 & 3 i suspect they are Lola /toleman cars with mods
1981 or did they modify toleman TG280#3 to a DS1 car?
On paper toleman and lola are the same cars except the bodywork differs
DS team had
Toleman TG280#3 & 6
Lola T850 hu 2 & 3 so DS1#3 could be either car!! I guess I will have to ask Alan next week

[Chris Townsend]

T860 - HU2 has previous in Japanese F.Pacific before it is sold to Williamson. Believe it to have been used by Rothengatter in Japan, at least that's what New Zealand Motor Action says about the car.

Chris

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Romans
2 cars built 1 destroyed 1 remains with John Fellows 2007

The first Roman to appear was on the hills in 1988. It had a 2.8 Hart engine and was nominally called the IVH - NB Rob Turnbull shared the driving duties.
The pair also ran the car in 1989. Rowan continued with IVH through to the end of 1991 when he sold the car to Mark Colton. Colton ran the car initially with the Hart engine (1992) then for 1993 it was converted to Judd V8 power by Rowan and Colton campaigned the car through 1993 & 1994. For 1995 Colton switched to the MP72 Pilbeam and removed the Judd engine from the Roman. Meanwhile Rowan had built up another Roman (VJ) which was campaigned sporadically by various drivers including Rowan and Mineef.

Tony Marsh bought IVH and fitted his Cosworth DFL for 1996 after he shunted the Toleman TG191 DFL in 1995 - the TG191 being the ex-Bigwood car.

John Fellows first appeared with the Roman VJ in 1997 still fitted with the 3.5 Judd engine.

[driftwood]

well done steve
chris u reckon hu2 was the car Huub raced in japan with hart 420r in the F2 race then?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Toleman TG280 cars
C5: Works 1980 Hentons ( 2nd half of season car) - Crawford 1981 - Crompton .Rowan Clifford ...now Terry Fisher 2006
C11 Richard Fry hillclimbing with FGB gearbox 2.8 Hart power
T290 cars
1 to Richard Ames Colin Stone Bill Hall sold to Perkins then broken up remains of car sold to USA 2007
1 to David Render sold to usa 2007
1 to Nigel Bigwood tony Marsh
1 ?? now in a a garage
1981

TG280H-C5 - this car was initially run by Ray Rowan from 1984 to 1986. In 1987 Richard Ames drove the car in the BSC. In i988 Terry Clifford bought the car and ran it from '88 to '92. In 1993 Richard Fry mad an appearance in the car.

TG87/1 - This car was again initially run by Ray Rowan in 1987 before David Render took it over. Render drove it from '87 until '93.

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in a Toleman Hart during 1988 and '89

TG290-?? - Nigel Bigwood switched to a 290 for 1990.

TG290-?? - Richard Ames drove another TG290 during 1990 & '91.

TG191-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in this Cosworth V8 powered Toleman in 1991. It was then sold to David Render who used it in conjunction with TG87/1 during '92 & '93. The car was sold mid-way through 1993 to Tony Marsh who used it for the remaider of the season and through until 1995.

[driftwood]

So Steve
Toleman built 11 official cars
All in all Ray assembled by hook or by crook 5 cars and retubbed chassis 5
making 16 "Toleman" cars and Lola made 6 F2 and 2 F atlantic cars
the final total of cars of that design being 24

does TG191 still exist today?
Roman IVH -still around?
TG87/1 Render 2.8 litre car this is the car Ray was using till last year in club sprints now sold to usa?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

So Steve
Toleman built 11 official cars
All in all Ray assembled by hook or by crook 5 cars and retubbed chassis 5
making 16 "Toleman" cars and Lola made 6 F2 and 2 F atlantic cars
the final total of cars of that design being 24

does TG191 still exist today?
Roman IVH -still around?
TG87/1 Render 2.8 litre car this is the car Ray was using till last year in club sprints now sold to usa?

TG87/1 was the car Ray was using in the British Hillclimb Championship up until last year. Didn't know it was sold to the States though!!!

Roman IVH has been stripped of its engine & gearbox and is currently "for sale" although who would want it I am not sure!

I believe TG191 was the one crashed and written off by Tony Marsh. He then bought IVH as a roller and installed the DFL & Hewland from TG191 in IVH.

[driftwood]

TG87/1 was the car Ray was using in the British Hillclimb Championship up until last year. Didn't know it was sold to the States though!!! top secret info if i told u more i would have to kill you !

Roman IVH has been stripped of its engine & gearbox and is currently "for sale" although who would want it I am not sure!always 1 out there who wants a car !!
if a man has a dfl and hewland lying around he could rebuild the car for historic hillclimbing in 15 yrs time!!

I believe TG191 was the one crashed and written off by Tony Marsh. He then bought IVH as a roller and installed the DFL & Hewland from TG191 in IVH.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in a Toleman Hart during 1988 and '89

TG290-?? - Nigel Bigwood switched to a 290 for 1990.

TG191-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in this Cosworth V8 powered Toleman in 1991. It was then sold to David Render who used it in conjunction with TG87/1 during '92 & '93. The car was sold mid-way through 1993 to Tony Marsh who used it for the remaider of the season and through until 1995.

Could this be the same car throughout, updated for 1990 and re-engined for 1991? Steve - are you able to ask Bigwood? And can he recall where the TG280 came from before 1988?

Allen

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Could this be the same car throughout, updated for 1990 and re-engined for 1991? Steve - are you able to ask Bigwood? And can he recall where the TG280 came from before 1988?

Allen

Unfortunately Nigel is no longer with us.

All the cars (if there were multiple cars) came from Ray Rowan.

Maybe Drifty could ask Raymondo next time they are chatting?

[allenbrown]

Ah yes, sorry.

[Dan Rear]

Difficult to keep up with all recent posts. However a couple of items. First what are "TG290s"?? Second I thought we'd established elsewhere that Wyatt S never in fact raced the Toleman he entered in early 81 or 82. He did appear once only, albeit in an Ralt RT6 or similar.

[driftwood]

TG290 is a made up name for the cars built out of spare parts from the factory
Ray Rowan cleared the dead stock made these cars for hillclimbers
the toleman run was 11 cars 9 race din F2 2 went hillclimbing
lola built/made 5x T850 under licence in 81

1 car had DFL fitted
with the odd spares left after the "toleman" tg290 cars where built Ray made the Roman using some uprights and tub skin bits with SPA making more parts and the final tubs for the 2 Romans but they are 2 totally different cars
They have DNA to toleman f2 cars car but are not toleman modifed cars

as we discussed earlier in detail the f2 cars plus the 4-5 hillclimb sprinting cars and more can be added if someone needs more info
only 1 roman exists
bored now can we have some photos please

[Steve Wilkinson]

Further to Drifty's notes below:

1) The TG290s were the Tolemans built up by Ray Rowan from the spare tubs/chassis.
2) The Romans were the cars that Ray Rowan built from the spare bits (i.e. not full tubs/chassis) plus what he had made-up by SPA.
3) There are two Romans left that I know of (one in Yorkshire that is in bits and minus its engine & gearbox, the other a complete car which hasn't competed for many years).

On the photo front I have loads of stuff on slides which I will hopefully digitise over the Winter IF another project doesn't take up too much of my time!

PS How did I ever find time to go to work!!!

Originally Posted by driftwood

TG290 is a made up name for the cars built out of spare parts from the factory
Ray Rowan cleared the dead stock made these cars for hillclimbers
the toleman run was 11 cars 9 race din F2 2 went hillclimbing
lola built/made 5x T850 under licence in 81

1 car had DFL fitted
with the odd spares left after the "toleman" tg290 cars where built Ray made the Roman using some uprights and tub skin bits with SPA making more parts and the final tubs for the 2 Romans but they are 2 totally different cars
They have DNA to toleman f2 cars car but are not toleman modifed cars

as we discussed earlier in detail the f2 cars plus the 4-5 hillclimb sprinting cars and more can be added if someone needs more info
only 1 roman exists
bored now can we have some photos please

[driftwood]

PS How did I ever find time to go to work!!! what is that?
I believe John took the roman out recently !!

[driftwood]

amendments on the extra cars built
I was with Ray strapped to a chair spot light in face mole grips on finger nails and he finally confessed
The Bigwood car was with 2.8 Hart then sold to Tony Marsh with dfl power
That car is later sold less engine and a 2 litre motor was poised to be fitted but car never ran and is still in black bodywork as a roller

2 more cars ran1 wa sthe BP liveried car ran by Ames in sprints then colin stone in BOSS
that car was then sold broken up for engine and gearbox now sold to usa as a pile of spare parts
the third car is the Render car with 2.8 Hart now in usa
so 3 cars built from the dead stock Toleman /Lola parts not 4 !
Romans
1 car still complete
other car was cannibalised for engine and gearbox for another project car
tub still around somewhere

[allenbrown]

So, to modify Steve's histories:

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

TG280H-C5 - this car was initially run by Ray Rowan from 1984 to 1986. In 1987 Richard Ames drove the car in the BSC. In i988 Terry Clifford bought the car and ran it from '88 to '92. In 1993 Richard Fry mad an appearance in the car.

TG87/1 - This car was again initially run by Ray Rowan in 1987 before David Render took it over. Render drove it from '87 until '93.

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in a Toleman Hart during 1988 and '89

TG290-?? - Nigel Bigwood switched to a 290 for 1990.

TG290-?? - Richard Ames drove another TG290 during 1990 & '91.

TG191-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in this Cosworth V8 powered Toleman in 1991. It was then sold to David Render who used it in conjunction with TG87/1 during '92 & '93. The car was sold mid-way through 1993 to Tony Marsh who used it for the remaider of the season and through until 1995.

TG280H-C5 - Rowan from 1984-1986 - Richard Ames 1987 - Terry Clifford 1988-92 - Richard Fry 1993 ...

TG87/1 - Ray Rowan 1987 - David Render 1987-93 ... now in USA with 2.8 Hart

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood 1988-89; then as T290 in 1990; then as TS191-DFL in 1991 (- Render 1992-93) - Tony Marsh 1993-95 ... later sold less engine ... now a roller in black bodywork.

TG290-?? - Richard Ames 1990-91 ... Colin Stone for BOSS ... later broken up and sold to USA as spare parts.

Have I got that right?

[driftwood]

not quite
TG290-?? - Richard Ames 1990-91 ... Colin Stone for BOSS ... later broken up and sold to USA as spare parts.correct= 1 of the later built cars
TG87/1 - Ray Rowan 1987 - David Render 1987-93 ... now in USA with 2.8 Hart another of the later built cars & always been a sprint car sold with the remains of the above car

TG280H-C5 - Rowan from 1984-1986 - Richard Ames 1987 - Terry Clifford 1988-92 - Richard Fry 1993 ...this car is the TRUE toleman ex henton 2nd half of 1980 F2 season car now with Terry Fisher- Ray will confirm car was shunted and had new tub fitted

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood 1988-89; then as T290 in 1990; then as TS191-DFL in 1991 (- Render 1992-93) - Tony Marsh 1993-95 ... later sold less engine ... now a roller in black bodywork.[COLOR="red" This is another Ray built car from spare parts ]initailly I had listed as 2 seperate cars but they are in fact 1 car as it went from Hart power to DFR then proposed hart power again but car never ran[/COLOR]



Tolemans chassis 10 and 11 where built by factory for hillclimbers with FGB gearboxes
9 cars raced in F2
2 went hillclimbing
3 cars later built from spare parts from the factory
6 cars built by Lola as T850/860 cars under licence
Total cars built that look like Tolemans= 20

[RTH]