Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Racing Talk > Racers Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 29 Jun 2006, 11:23 (Ref:1644097)   #51
greenamex2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
England
Hertfordshire
Posts: 1,686
greenamex2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Weyman
I would need 540bhp to have just the same power to weight ratio in my car as that Metro
I thought American V8's come with that as standard and then hit 1000BHP with tuppence and a used stamp spending on them?
greenamex2 is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jun 2006, 11:47 (Ref:1644113)   #52
Al Weyman
Veteran
 
Al Weyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
England
South of Watford (just)
Posts: 14,699
Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!
Ha Ha, my car probably has about 540bhp now I have set up the ignition correctly and I could outdrag the KAD Mini at Rockingham but he slaughtered me in the twisty bits and under braking, its not all about power. In fact if I had not braked for the chicane I would have got past him easy enough and made him work for his supper. Would have added a bit of spice don't you think instead of them just disappearing off into the distance.

Trouble is Mig if he qualified lower he would end up way at the back of the grid so he still needs to qualify as high as he can. I wonder what start format DTRC will be running at Brands, thats if I am in of course.
Al Weyman is offline  
__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter!
Quote
Old 29 Jun 2006, 13:06 (Ref:1644153)   #53
graham bahr
Veteran
 
graham bahr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
England
cambs
Posts: 2,071
graham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridgraham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by mig
Thing is Al that Bill qualfied 5th I think but due to the lack of grunt of the line he lost four or five places so it then makes you think about pushing 100% in qualifying as you know you will lose of the line.I think this issue will always favour some cars and cost others so the way the DTRC is done with a 50/50 of rolling starts and standing starts is probably the fairest
i didn't think bill lost that many places, interestly

race 1 he stayed ahead of me and race 2 i got ahead of him, which suggests as we all know there are other factors at work and if you re-ran the same start several times you would probably get several different results
graham bahr is offline  
__________________
AKA Guru

its not speed thats dangerous, just the sudden lack of it!
Quote
Old 29 Jun 2006, 13:44 (Ref:1644171)   #54
mig
Racer
 
mig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
England
Kent where the hops and Hondas are from
Posts: 357
mig should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Watching the in car video we have you can see how the old boy was overpowered at the start still he had a good days racing
mig is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jun 2006, 14:20 (Ref:1644199)   #55
graham bahr
Veteran
 
graham bahr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
England
cambs
Posts: 2,071
graham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridgraham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by mig
still he had a good days racing
which is ultimatly what its all about,

i think as you a 50/50 split between the two start methods is fairest to all, mind you we could then get into a which start at at which venue question, lydden by way of nature favours small cars, so maybe a rolling start there evens things up a little, as might a standing start at snet which definatly favors big horsepower cars.

but as i said earlier, to get a true picture of which start is best you would have to take out lots of variables or analyse a lot of race starts
graham bahr is offline  
__________________
AKA Guru

its not speed thats dangerous, just the sudden lack of it!
Quote
Old 29 Jun 2006, 16:23 (Ref:1644278)   #56
Al Weyman
Veteran
 
Al Weyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
England
South of Watford (just)
Posts: 14,699
Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!
By virtue of the torque arm suspension on my car it will infact take off like a veritable drag car from a standing start controversaly and for the same reason if you do not get things correct it will axle hop on heavy breaking, swings and roundabouts again so I am not advocating rollers as a particular personal advantage.

I think the point is more safety than any disagvantage or advantage gained. Maybe it is because I hit a car square on once that was avoiding a stalled car or maybe I just got a real buzz from the rollers we did at the Rock as the car seemed so good midrange with the new dizzy, either way I'm now a staunch rolling start advocate!
Al Weyman is offline  
__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter!
Quote
Old 29 Jun 2006, 16:40 (Ref:1644297)   #57
Rod Birley
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
England
West Kingsdown (near Brands Hatch)
Posts: 2,297
Rod Birley should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Brands on 23rd July is a rolling start.
Rod Birley is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jun 2006, 19:15 (Ref:1644382)   #58
Al Weyman
Veteran
 
Al Weyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
England
South of Watford (just)
Posts: 14,699
Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!
Excellent, I will look forward to it even more (if I am in of course),
Al Weyman is offline  
__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter!
Quote
Old 29 Jun 2006, 22:24 (Ref:1644496)   #59
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notso Swift
You got it in one, with a Saftey Car you are driving under yellow, until you hit the green flag, as per normal you can't pass until after the green flag. F1 rules are the same for the most humble of us in this regard
Thanks, I had a brain fade moment and couldn't think at the time. It's another of those 'is it the right idea?' questions. I have this thought that the best way is when the when the safety car lights go off, then the yellows get withdrawn, and racing starts with the green flag at the start line, especially at restarts when front runners can lose a heap of time behind a tardy back-marker.

Again, ChampCar do it that way, although at Cleveland it did mean that the yellows were out again before half the field had reached the start line!
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 2 Jul 2006, 21:59 (Ref:1646838)   #60
dtype38
Race Official
Veteran
 
dtype38's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
England
East London
Posts: 2,479
dtype38 has a real shot at the podium!dtype38 has a real shot at the podium!dtype38 has a real shot at the podium!dtype38 has a real shot at the podium!
Just to show that I wasn't going completely do-lally.... I was talking to a driver today who raced at Zandvoort last year. He said that in the driver briefing they were told very clearly that on their rolling start, the green light indicated that the formation was intack, the race was go, and that the pole position driver had control of the grid. They said that the race start would be as each car crossed the start line, and that if any car that broke formation before it had crossed the start line it would receive a 10s stop go penalty..... The same driver then went to Rockingham and was told that when the lights changed to green it was "game on"!

Guess it just goes to show that you need to check the regs for each track!
dtype38 is offline  
Quote
Old 2 Jul 2006, 23:50 (Ref:1646897)   #61
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,809
MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!
dtype38 - yep your Zandy rule is what I said back in post #36 - FISC is all mainland European circuits. An excellent example of the purpose of driver's briefings - and asking questions if unsure :-)
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2006, 12:36 (Ref:1647272)   #62
Tim Falce
Race Official
Veteran
 
Tim Falce's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
England
Very edge of S E London almost in Kent
Posts: 11,141
Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtype38
Surprised that you say that. As I understand it, for a rolling start your race timing for your car starts at the moment you cross the start line (and are identified by the timing loop), not the moment the red lights go out. That would mean that if you crossed the start line ahead of someone who was supposed to be in front of you on the grid, then you'd have made a jump start. Be interested in anyone who has a definitive answer on this one... or does it depend on individual series regulations?
Sorry, just caught up with this thread again. All the rolling starts I have done and watched, not many admittedly, we have been told you start racing when the red light goes out no matter where you are on the grid, exactly the same as a standing start.
The rules for starting in UK club racing seem to be the same for both types of starts otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to overtake anyone until you went past the gantry on a standing start.
Tim Falce is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2006, 15:34 (Ref:1647404)   #63
midgetman
Veteran
 
midgetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location:
Rural Wiltshire
Posts: 6,778
midgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
>>>>>>we have been told you start racing when the red light goes out no matter where you are on the grid, exactly the same as a standing start.

Haven't got a Blue Book with me to check the car section, but in karting the rule is perfectly clear - you maintain position at the rolling start until you have crossed the start line.

In standing start races, speed eventers have a massive advantage but normally get tired after one lap and drop back again!
midgetman is offline  
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq!
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2006, 15:47 (Ref:1647415)   #64
dtype38
Race Official
Veteran
 
dtype38's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
England
East London
Posts: 2,479
dtype38 has a real shot at the podium!dtype38 has a real shot at the podium!dtype38 has a real shot at the podium!dtype38 has a real shot at the podium!
Like I said, the rule seems to be different depending in where you are and what you're racing. General concensus, though, seems to be that for UK club meetings, don't worry about the start line. :-)
dtype38 is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2006, 17:20 (Ref:1647474)   #65
midgetman
Veteran
 
midgetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location:
Rural Wiltshire
Posts: 6,778
midgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Just got back and checked the Blue Book. Whilst under "karting" it says "it is an offence to break formation before crossing the start line itself" there is nothing at all under the car racing section. IMHO it is unacceptable to have different procedures for different clubs, races or tracks. How can a governing body that is so precise about one thing be so lax when it comes to another safety-related element?
midgetman is offline  
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq!
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2006, 17:29 (Ref:1647478)   #66
carsten.meurer
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Germany
Düsseldorf
Posts: 168
carsten.meurer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
you are right max !

there seems to be very little continuety on this !
not just down to rules, but interpretation by COCs !
again, not just in uk ( to my expierience ) but all across europe.

this resulted in me being the most hated individual on any briefing,
as i need to put the same questions to every individual COC to
test the waters of his interpretation.

wouldn't want to loose out on the start for being too cautious,
and same for being too agressive.

down to this, my prefered start is a standing one !


the difference in regard to karting surely remains from th etimes where
the starter was in the middle of the track, having one line flying past either
side of him at the start.
then fewer starters were suicidal, and they moved to the side of the road.
still mr. buser didn't want to rewrite the rulebook it seems...
carsten.meurer is offline  
__________________
Specialised in Helmetpainting from Karting to F1 for 25 years !
First to paint and chrome a HANS Device for F1 !
Located just outside the Nürburgring Paddock.
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2006, 19:56 (Ref:1647553)   #67
Al Weyman
Veteran
 
Al Weyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
England
South of Watford (just)
Posts: 14,699
Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!
Well I think as the start finsh straight at the Rock is probably as wide as the M25 I think it perfectly safe and acceptable on the other hand at Lydden for example it may not be on.
Al Weyman is offline  
__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter!
Quote
Old 3 Jul 2006, 23:19 (Ref:1647654)   #68
johngee
#WhatAreHashTags
Veteran
 
johngee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Bagshot, Surrey
Posts: 2,526
johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!
I've only just caught up with this thread. From my point of view as a Clerk of the Course - rolling starts - I love 'em.
I think they're safer on balance, much kinder on the cars (which is very relevant with historic cars) and a great time saver from an organiser's perspective.
By the way, my instruction at drivers briefings for rolling starts is that everybody holds position until they cross the startline and I've never had any competitors (including series/championships which race in Europe) raise an objection to that. As far as I'm concerned, breaking formation before the startline is an 'out of position' start.
johngee is offline  
__________________
John Smith
Clerk of the Course and MSA Steward
Race Director for 360MRC
Quote
Old 4 Jul 2006, 06:40 (Ref:1647732)   #69
graham bahr
Veteran
 
graham bahr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
England
cambs
Posts: 2,071
graham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridgraham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by johngee
I've only just caught up with this thread. From my point of view as a Clerk of the Course - rolling starts - I love 'em.
I think they're safer on balance, much kinder on the cars (which is very relevant with historic cars) and a great time saver from an organiser's perspective.
By the way, my instruction at drivers briefings for rolling starts is that everybody holds position until they cross the startline and I've never had any competitors (including series/championships which race in Europe) raise an objection to that. As far as I'm concerned, breaking formation before the startline is an 'out of position' start.

hmm intersting, i've done quite a few rolling starts but only ever one in the way you describe john, every other one when the lights go out you race, irrespective of where you are in the grid. so in a standing start race are you not allowed to pass each other until you reach the line? i think not and dont see why a rolling start should be any different
graham bahr is offline  
__________________
AKA Guru

its not speed thats dangerous, just the sudden lack of it!
Quote
Old 4 Jul 2006, 08:45 (Ref:1647822)   #70
johngee
#WhatAreHashTags
Veteran
 
johngee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Bagshot, Surrey
Posts: 2,526
johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by graham bahr
hmm intersting, i've done quite a few rolling starts but only ever one in the way you describe john, every other one when the lights go out you race, irrespective of where you are in the grid. so in a standing start race are you not allowed to pass each other until you reach the line? i think not and dont see why a rolling start should be any different
Well Graham, I'm most concerned with safety and 'fairness'. As far as safety is concerned, I'm dealing mainly with historic racing, where there can be car performance and size variations in a given race, which are probably greater than in more modern categories and I venture to suggest that the 'race starts at the startline' rule, at least contributes to the avoidance of side to side contact and the effect of a smaller, lighter car attempting to 'get the jump' on larger, more powerful which can only be sustained over a short distance. As far as fairness goes, the race has to start somewhere and bearing in mind the previous point, I think the startline is the better place. As always, I'm prepared to listen to the counter arguements
johngee is offline  
__________________
John Smith
Clerk of the Course and MSA Steward
Race Director for 360MRC
Quote
Old 4 Jul 2006, 09:47 (Ref:1647864)   #71
AndyV
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Somerset, where the cider apples grow
Posts: 115
AndyV should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
How about when a car in the midfield fluffs his rolling start (wrong gear maybe) so when the front half of the grid accelerates away the cars behind the slow starter are stuck waiting for him/her to build up speed or eventually get to the startline by which time the front half of the pack is over the horizon.

I've only done rolling starts at Rockingham when the rule has been that once the green light is on then racing starts, which has seemed to work well (except for that time I was in the wrong gear)

Andy
AndyV is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Jul 2006, 09:58 (Ref:1647877)   #72
johngee
#WhatAreHashTags
Veteran
 
johngee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Bagshot, Surrey
Posts: 2,526
johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyV
How about when a car in the midfield fluffs his rolling start (wrong gear maybe) so when the front half of the grid accelerates away the cars behind the slow starter are stuck waiting for him/her to build up speed or eventually get to the startline by which time the front half of the pack is over the horizon.
Andy
I take the point Andy but is that really any different (in terms of safety or 'fairness') from being stuck behind somebody who stalls on a stationary grid start?
johngee is offline  
__________________
John Smith
Clerk of the Course and MSA Steward
Race Director for 360MRC
Quote
Old 4 Jul 2006, 10:50 (Ref:1647901)   #73
Tony Crossley
Rookie
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 60
Tony Crossley should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It is different becuase earlier you said:
"By the way, my instruction at drivers briefings for rolling starts is that everybody holds position until they cross the startline "

So in this scenario, would the other drivers be expected to slowly creep behind the 'wrong gear car' until it passes the S/F line?

My only rolling start experience is again Rockingham, where once the lights are out you can race -no need to wait - and it worked well.
Tony Crossley is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Jul 2006, 11:21 (Ref:1647912)   #74
johngee
#WhatAreHashTags
Veteran
 
johngee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Bagshot, Surrey
Posts: 2,526
johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!johngee has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Crossley
It is different becuase earlier you said:
"By the way, my instruction at drivers briefings for rolling starts is that everybody holds position until they cross the startline "

So in this scenario, would the other drivers be expected to slowly creep behind the 'wrong gear car' until it passes the S/F line?

My only rolling start experience is again Rockingham, where once the lights are out you can race -no need to wait - and it worked well.
Well Tony, I'll let you into a little 'trade secret' If I brief as I described, then the start is neat, tidy, safe and fair even if there is a little 'creative interpretation'. If I don't and implicitly allow racing to commence when the lights change and before the startline, then all hell breaks loose and we get footage for the next 'Crash' video. I accept that, in the main, I'm dealing with historic cars/drivers and the discipline and aversion to contact/damage is, perhaps, a factor.
johngee is offline  
__________________
John Smith
Clerk of the Course and MSA Steward
Race Director for 360MRC
Quote
Old 4 Jul 2006, 12:57 (Ref:1647990)   #75
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,809
MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by johngee
Well Tony, I'll let you into a little 'trade secret' If I brief as I described, then the start is neat, tidy, safe and fair even if there is a little 'creative interpretation'. ......
So, to paraphrase, you tell 'em something at briefing which is not backed up by the Blue Book, and then don't necessarily enforce it? Am I alone in finding that confusing? Would you be happy that the good guys lose out and those that bend the rule (break the rule?) get the advantage?
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Standing Or Rolling Starts? GP Racer IRL Indycar Series 36 1 Oct 2004 15:09
F3 rolling starts...? superMINI National & International Single Seaters 7 17 May 2004 15:16
Rolling starts pink69 Formula One 25 25 May 2001 18:34
Rolling Starts Invader Touring Car Racing 28 5 Feb 2001 20:45


All times are GMT. The time now is 13:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.