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20 Jun 2008, 14:15 (Ref:2233476)
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#1 | |
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Rookie
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 31
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kingpin and scrub of modern formula car?
Anyone know what a typical kingpin angle and scrub radius of modern formula car is?
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20 Jun 2008, 17:12 (Ref:2233612)
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#2 | |||
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Registered User
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 319
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Quote:
Those angles are hard to select free from other circumstances, such as turning angle of the wheels etc. Which means that it would be of interest to know what they would like to have if other circumstances did not limit what could be had. Especially what they want the SAI to be. The thing is that we would probabley dont have any answers from the F1 engineers on the subject. And without this, any measure given would not give the whole story. Besides, I am o fan of large scrub and SAI angles myself. Regards Goran. |
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22 Jun 2008, 01:27 (Ref:2234438)
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#3 | |
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Rookie
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 31
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Hey Goran, what do you like about large scrub and sai angles?
and it doesn't have to be a formula 1 car, something like ff2000 or f3 would suffice. I'm just curious as to the ballpark numbers they use. What about caster and mechanical trail too? I figure 1-3 degrees caster.. how much trail though? |
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23 Jun 2008, 20:16 (Ref:2236054)
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#4 | ||
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Registered User
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 319
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I could start by saying that I don’t like large scrub. Large scrub distance puts undesirable loads on all suspension components. And large scrub distance is one thing that hardly has any positive sides.
SAI on the other hand might be useful since it cut DOWN on scrub. The bad sides is turning elevation and + camber that needs caster compensation. I can’t really tell what the most used numbers for formula cars is. But 5 dgr of SAI could be a rough guess. 3 dgr caster could be a balance here. I see that you mention trial but I haven’t noticed very much use of this. However, I should not depend on these figures as being good as such. F1 has very large tire sides and by that follows small wheel diameter. By using larger wheels the spindle could be located deeper in to the wheel as another way to reduce scrub distance. Such spindle could be seen on many FSAE and LMP cars (and my own creations). Goran. |
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20 Aug 2008, 19:41 (Ref:2272318)
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#5 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 98
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A little off the meat of the subject, but will large scrub also add to tire deformation at the contact patch resulting in more friction and therefore more power required to over come? Unless I am confusing terms, I've thought about one benefit of center point steering - reduced friction??? I know from reading that this is not desirable in terms of steering feel or perceived steering stability in a straight line...?
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20 Aug 2008, 19:58 (Ref:2272332)
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#6 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 98
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...sorry, the edit tool is missing
Aren't caster and mechanical trail the same thing? ...pneumatic trail comes from tire deflection in the side view adding to caster/ mechanical trail??? |
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22 Aug 2008, 18:21 (Ref:2273499)
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#7 | |||
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Registered User
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 319
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Quote:
About the steering feel, scrub distance is normally discussed in termes that it is good for steering feel. Nothing wrong with this, but this effect is also dependent on the amount of other angle and setting of the car. In a "cleaner" construction we can get away with fare less scrub for the same steering message to the driver. And it is not impossible to learn how to drive with less scrub (feedback). Little scrub has a number of things going for it, like less stress on mechanical components, less influence on Mr, less steering lift from SAI etc. Regards Goran |
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1 Sep 2008, 06:48 (Ref:2279153)
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#8 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 509
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Not sure either but 399-307 Dallara F3 are all around 10deg castor. I'll check up on SAI but I don't think it's much just from eyeballing it.
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3 Sep 2008, 08:56 (Ref:2280657)
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#9 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 246
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A Formula 3 car usually have about 10 degrees of caster, about 14 degrees or more of kingpin angle and about 25 mm of scrub radius and 27 of caster trail. This is in my opinion a very good suspension! Not only for these numbers!
Hope can help! Regards! Andrea |
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