Falling or thriving grids?

[Alfatim]

Anyone have current experience of their chosen series grid sizes?

Are your grids sizes shrinking? If so why do you think?

Are your grid sizes bulging? If so why do you think?

No doubt there are some grids under threat, but why? Are trackdays to blame? Is it ever increasing costs? Or has general imagination moved on and relatively new series are 'stealing' entries?

Maybe a circuit issue?

[Al Weyman]

Mainly money IMHO and the ridiculous cost of entries, proof of this is when a bargain race is promoted by say MSV and by bargain I mean £100 for one race or £150 for two so not exactly cheap but a lot cheaper than the standard £170 for one race of 10 minutes duration then the grids are usually full. When I started in the late 80's it was £45 entry and we had a nice prize fund which you only had to finish to get some money back now there is nothing in the pot. Going back further to the mid 70's when I did hotrods, we used to get paid start money and prize money and no entry fee!

I talk to people about my sport and they nearly always ask what you get paid if you win, when you tell them nothing and it cost £170 to enter they look at you like you have a screw loose and just maybe we do! Then added to this is the ridiculous changing of safety equipment, example I just looked at the belts I bought in Sept last year and they are stamped 2007 so no doubt I will have to replace them so another £100, thats stupid as there is no way a modern prodcuct would wear as bad as the be unusable in that short space of time and I have probably worn then what 10 or 15 times tops.They all want to be very careful they do not kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

[Keith Scarfe]

One of the closest most exciting single make championships is threatened:


http://www.wscrda.co.uk/

[JamesH]

I am biased, as I race a Locost, which is effectively a cheap westfield. We get grids of at least 40 and have had 65 at Donington.

Why?

Cost. Its as simple as that. A top spec car costs about 6k, entriy fees with the 750mc are about as cheap as you can get.

We get both novice and experienced drivers disillusioned with other series.

However, costs are going up all the time - demand for Escorts diffs means prices going up (just one example of parts costs), entry fees go up because circuit hire costs are increasing so much, petrol both for the race and getting to and from circuits is getting ridiculous.

I have only raced over the last couple of years, but spiralling costs mean I can enter fewer and fewer races (car chassis bent beyond repair doesnt help!).

The only area that can change from the above is the hire costs of the circuits - are they pricing themselves out of the market?

James

[greenamex2]

We have lost entries due to not keeping pace with the changing market. There is far more competition with the ever increasing number of series out there and they offered something that competitors wanted more the we could/were prepared to offer.

What did they offer? Things such as -

Faster tyres.
More restricted mods.
Less restricted mods.
Cheaper entry fees.
Two shorter races rather than one longer one.
Bigger grids.
More restricted range of cars.
Much longer races for more cost.
Locality of circuits.
Race dates.
Track days.

As many of the above are contradictory it just goes or totally out of our control it just goes to show you can't win!

You only have to look at some of the current large and small grids, look back a couple of years and see that they were totally the opposite way round without anything significant having changed with the series itself.

[Al Weyman]

I still think if 100% of prize funds were ploughed back into proper award money for competitors and not creamed off along the way it would help a great deal. I have had personal experience of this and whereas Toyos offer of free tyres for new competitors in ModProds was welcome, Falkens 25k a year prize fund and good supply of well priced tyres in a very good range of sizes helped the series a heck of a lot more, just look at the history and you will see I am right!

[Peter Wardle]

The biggest problem facing motor racing right now is that its a very expensive hobby that can no longer attracts spectators, mostly because the events the public, as opposed to people's relations, never get to hear about are the club events where there is still some actual racing going on.

Apart from the BTCC itself, with a couple of its support events one of which has been warned about entry levels, the events they sometimes get exposed to are universally boring processions in virtually every race with drivers no one can relate to so there is no way anyone can get passionate about it and tell their friends to come to the next one.

They assume, therefore, that all racing is the same and go and do (or watch)something else where they can relate to the personalities involved.

Without spectators the only income which keeps the circuits doors open comes from the competitors so the Organising Club can only divide up the hire costs by the number of competitors and charge accordingly.

I fall about laughing every time the MSA refers to spectators as a reason to cull Championships - there arent any!

At the last F3 event at Silverstone (pitched as the number one single seater level in the UK remember...) I did some sums. By my estimates there was about £12.5 million of equipment (and this was an underestimation with only nominal sums allowed for the teams' equipment and transport) and a spend to operate all the competing cars at that one event of well over £1 million, taking average budgets for each class.

I then toured the spectator enclosures counting heads. Including relations of drivers etc. I got to about 300! I think some of those were actually asleep during the F3 races and the two hour GT race.

The people I admired hugely were the commentators, knocking themselves out trying to make the F3 procession sound vaguely interesting (I think there were only two overtaking moves, both at Abbey hairpin in front of 67 spectators including me) and keeping track of a long GT event where not too much happened, though I regret there werent too many people listening.

Shame really - this sport used to be fantastic and we could make it so again, but no proper commercial sponsors are interested because they cannot realise any benefit from it, so its only the competitors who can finance it at the moment.

They just have to make a judgement on whether its worth spending the money or not. Its their decision, not the MSA's, the Organising Club's, the Tracks' or anyone else's.

[mark77]

Hi, I've been racing for 2 years, but attending for 20 odd years. Much has been said about falling spectators and I can certainly vouch for that.

I've been really surpised to find the circuits get the gate receipts - in my mind if the club hires the circuit they should get this. Any idea if its possible to do a deal with the circuits to all the clubs to take on promoting the meetings and the inturn keeping the gate receipts.

[Shalders]

But of course there are some exceptions...Castle Combe being by far the clearest.

Here there is a crowd, and the revenue gained is seemingly ploughed back in to the facilities and cheaper entry fees for the competitors.

The championships run by the circuit mean that regular fans can start to relate to the drivers, making it a lot more appealing when they come back to watch more.

What I don't undertsand is why other circuits aren't more keen to try and recreate this model....

[Cameron Winton]

Castle Combe - A well run business - plain and simple, work hard at attracting the spectators AND the competitors then don't be greedy & plough the profits back into the business to make it sustainable in the long term. It's not complex just hard work.
Maybe this is the solution?

[markw63]

British motorsport in my opinion is in very dire straits, not so much from a competitor point of view as there seems to be lots of us willing to spend a lot of money at the circuit and away from the circuit for what appears to outsiders as very little gain or enjoyment time, although we are a special breed of "headcases", the sport at all levels seems to be very out in the cold at the moment. Spectators are dropping drastically as are race championships at various meetings, maybe due to the racmsa having to many of the same championship or due to costs, who knows. Personally i dont complain about entry fees, probably being due to just accepting the amount it costs to do something i love or maybe out of the fact that the misses controls all the household cash so it doesnt make any difference to me as long as my entry gets paid, probably the latter.

Seriously though, i run a motorsport based business and from the inside i can see a fairly bleak future for club motorsport, even to the point that i think its only a matter of time before the amount of races and track time we get will be cut down to the bare minimum, why i dont know, maybe down to more circuit owners preffering trackday money to race day money or economic climate change perhaps.
Something does need to be done to help us and the future of our sport.

Any suggestions?

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by mark77

I've been really surpised to find the circuits get the gate receipts - in my mind if the club hires the circuit they should get this. Any idea if its possible to do a deal with the circuits to all the clubs to take on promoting the meetings and the inturn keeping the gate receipts.

Yes, but you'd have to buy these rights off them too.

[Al Weyman]

A good racer and a good friend of mine has just hung up his helmet and reckons he has had enough and is doing the Brands Trackday event instead to try to get his buzz that way. Loosing guys like this is bad news but I can understand his thinking.

[hometune]

Originally Posted by Alfatim

Or has general imagination moved on and relatively new series are 'stealing' entries?

Not sure how to interpret the first part of the sentance but would agree that new series are gaining the entries.

This will always happen as a well planned and policed series will attract those from other series who:

1. Feel they or their car will be more competitive in the new series
2. No longer feel welcome in their existing series
3. Have grievances with other drivers/ organisers
4. Hope they will spend less

It isn't necessary for any of the above to be true, simply that they are believed will be enough to make people move.

Isn't this continual evolution and development of new series healthy as it brings "new blood" into motor sport organisation and a continual stream of customers to the motorsport industry ?

[greenamex2]

Yep a new series will attract existing drivers and a small number of new ones. It will also damage the existing ones and result in smaller grids all round. If it's really popular then it will ultimately destroy one or more of the original series and usually leave several drivers/cars stranded with nowhere to go but track days/give up. If it isn't popular then it will take several years to die, again with slowly dwindling grids.

The end result will be an overall loss of drivers to the sport after a period unhappy drivers/spectators/marshalls/circuit organisers.

And then the circle will start all over again.

The big question is WHY the series started in the first place rather than the inevitable one or two people just joining another one and/or trying to get it to change.

This is always due to some form of self interest on the part of the 'leaders' of the new series, or reluctance to change on the part of the existing series organisers.

Neither of which is a very good reason for the resulting choas the ensues.

Until the MSA start taking responsibility for British club motorsport rather than just playing with the big name championships then this cycle will continue to destroy. Club motorsport will die and probably take professional motorsport with it.

[Al Weyman]

Fair points but I will give a couple of examples of what happened to ModProds while I was there.

The rot IMHO started when we visited Combe for the first time and with a massive grid(s) of cars we impressed big time, so much so that the Combe managment in their infinite wisdom decided to 'steal' the idea and more or less use our regs (that I wrote) chapter and verse without even as much as a thank you. That hurt and immediately started pulling our SW drivers away so why were they allowed to do that, i.e. start a championship/series based at one track to the obvious detriment of an established national championship.

Next thing that happened was BARCSE did the same based at Lydden mainly but at least they had the grace to contact me and ask my permission to use the regs which I agreed because even if I had not they would have been able to go ahead. Then lately you had the emergence of DTRC again similiar rules (apart from some of Class A) creaming yet more cars/drivers away and while they are on a high at the moment offering something bright and new (rolling starts, two race format, reduced entry fees) and good luck to them I think they also should be aware of the massive differentials in performance amoungst the classes as that could end up being their achielles heel.

Having said all that when we started ModProds I guess we did the same to the Road and Super Road Saloons as again there were similarities in the championships but with some major differences and the reason we formed, trailering to the circuit and not being abliged to drive to it and not being a road legal car which i know was erking some drivers as I was one of them and had asked for changes but never got them. We were backed by a good sponsor and had an entrapeneering guy at the helm so we got off to a good start and did steal a few of their drivers I must admit.

[graham bahr]

lots of very valid points in there Al,

i suppose its a case of like everythng else in life changing markets, the race series/championships that succeed will be those enough on the ball to supply what is closest to consumer demand, effectivly race organisers are like shop keepers, if the product is wrong, priced wrong or just plain old fashioned the punters will go elsewhere, i have been involved with Barc se for 6 years now and the only reason DTRC is as popular as it is is that we have worked very hard to supply as best we can what drivers want, and by god was it hard at first, we started with a couple of grids with less than half a dozen cars, but never deliberately tried to take drivers from other series although some of that is inevitable, evolution is key, what ever you do it must evolve and move on or die, lets face it most of us love old cars and get all misty eyed over old moggy minors, anglias or mk1 escorts etc, but if they were still being made how many of us would buy one new as an every day car when modern cars are so much better?

[graham bahr]

a couple of points to note with regards to DTRC, its is popular, and yes gaining in numbers, but we have quite a few first time drivers who have decided to come racing in the first place because of what they have seen with us so more numbers doesnt always main drivers "nicked " from other series, without trying too hard i can think of at least 15 who have started their racing with us, have perviously been sprinters, trackday drivers, mechanics or just plain spectators.

we also try very hard to look after drivers, and try to show loyalty for support they have given us, we want to grow more, and yes Al is right there are some very big speed differenicals, although at places like lydden its not so much of an issue as we have enough cars to run split grids, now if only we could do that at brands, but to do so requires a bit more foresight on the behalf of those hiring out the circuit, we have had full grids there even turned cars away, because we dont have enough to buy two grids at the full going rate, but we could do it if we got the second grid half price, and ultimatly the organising club would of made MORE profit even if it brought the avaerage profit per car down, most places you can negotiate discount for bulk purchases.

were back to the same old thing again, if only meetings with good spectator friendly content was run and those meeting effectivly marketed to the public at correct turnstyle prices the specatotors would help fund the racing, and cheaper entries would men more cars, more cars more spectators it coud be a self perpetuating thing, trouble is ther are too many looking at only the short term £££

[hometune]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

This is always due to some form of self interest on the part of the 'leaders' of the new series, or reluctance to change on the part of the existing series organisers.

Neither of which is a very good reason for the resulting choas the ensues.

Until the MSA start taking responsibility for British club motorsport rather than just playing with the big name championships then this cycle will continue to destroy. Club motorsport will die and probably take professional motorsport with it.

True, If you look at short circuit racing as a closely related sport with similar costs ( away from the bangers), this is what goes on. A promoter ( similar to a organising club) comes up with something attractive and people migrate to that promoters meetings until another comes along. However, the sport as a whole seems to thrive rather than die.

I think the difference may be that promoters can start up for less cost than an organising club and they don't have a body such as the MSA restricting what they can and cannot do.

Maybe, if at some point MSV find it profitable to organise more meetings we may see some change. Until then, I doubt things will change much and the circle will continue.

[Al Weyman]

Good posts Grahame.

On the subject of short oval stuff, why did they never hold a meeting at Rockingham, I would have thought it would have been mega not bangers of course but the faster non-contact stuff. Can I hazard a guess that the MSA may have been the sticking point!

[mark77]

Any idea how much the circuits would charge the organisers to take the rights to gate receipts ?

[Al Weyman]

Its the same old argument that has blighted the sport for years, it really is about time someone found some middle ground on this and got their acts together.

[tim dodwell]

Don't worry Al, your series starting actually helped Road Saloons by removing unhappy bods (like you!!), and left us road going loons to enjoy ourselves. Both series were needed, and we still could field four good grids at each meeting after the "trailering crowd left.
The DTRC scores in many fronts - low entry fees (worryingly increasing though), friendly crowd (not unique on this point), and "easy going" regulations. Some series need a legal team to check your car over, and must put off many whose car is rendered ineligible by some spurious rule.
Graham makes a good point about promoting meetings that the public want. My feeling is that we need well promoted meetings with lots of variety (formula cars, sports cars, saloon cars) - mostly short quick races with low entry fees. Don't forget most of us have a short attention span - I'll admit to wandering off bored during longer distance races, usually confused (maybe its the old age, folks!!). Then I believe the races would be full again, and the spectators would return in droves. That I would have thought would increase circuit owners profits, but maybe they secretly hope to sell up for the housing needed for the next wave of immigration.
However, I will continue with more productive motions - like banging my head against a brick wall perhaps!!
Again, I will say that I still think the safety items are now more about retail and manufacturer profits, than for our benefit, and it is putting some club competitors off.
Maybe we'll join the later generation on the playstation, or trackdays.

[Al Weyman]

Yes the delay between races is a pain. I have been taking a guy new to motorsport with me this year and whereas he has enjoyed himself he finds the waits between races and all that silly warm up lap nonscence really boring (just why do we need that with modern oils and engines surly you can warm em up in the holding area if you atre that worried then just get out on the grid and go for it, that way they could no doubt get another race in and the entries may come down a little. Maybe introduce more rolling starts as well toi hurry things on, I really enjoyed the 4 that I did this year. Just come out the holding area, pick up the pace car for one lap and then start the race from a roller, no stalled cars, no lining up on the grid just get on with it, save me a bit of squirt as well!

[carsten.meurer]

interesting stuff !
i feel like an old fart, looking bad on better racing days, and not getting why it all goes downhill... i put some thought into it, and see some points that might contribute to it...

cars: there is no more engine capacity racing possible for new cars !
too much electronic and engineering options included in modern saloons of all sizes as to be able to let various brands and types let loose to race in any capacity class.
maybe this is the reason why manufacturers search theire base in one make championships, or high end classes as super1600 or wtcc or btcc.
those i feel have killed racing for a big part, as cars are only eligible for a max. of 5 years ( if the cchip suvives ). short lifespan and high part prices
make this choice pretty expensive !

also letting v.i.p.s loose after just a licens course does not help to make racing a established sport ! it makes people beliefe everybody can do it competitively just after a days training !
why i should i go and watch people do something ordinary ?
any why should i pay to provide a stage for the manufacturer and the vip to promote themselves ?

so, near no chance to grab a contemporary road car and go racing by just adding some safety kit and suspensions. so you NEED a second car to go and start racing.

that car might need to be classic or historic then, and not everybody is happy to restore a shell and get rid of rot on a 20 year old car before they buy the parts to go racing.

same basically appies for single seaters.

so appart from formula ford and maybe stock hatches, you will be forced into
a very limited used car market with sometimes ridicolous prices to get a racecar, if you want to get into it.

this might be ( together with ressesion ) a reason why you are unlikely to find a car dealer to help you in any way ! you race a single seater, or a out of date car ! no use for him to advertise, and no parts that just happen to get lost in stock...

so not just expensive safety gear to blame, you cannot use your everyday car to START racing ( very common a decade or more back still ).


events: seems all tracks feel the need to be on bernies level, and offer posh pitlanes and flat cerbs and tarmac runoffs...
the cost to provide that will add to my entry fee ! while often it does the opposite of spicing the driving up for me !

organizers - seems that everybody organizes racing series now !
years back that was the job of your asn, and what you paied your licens fee for ! they were paid to provide you with a playing field for a small number of class championships, that would cover about all cars from f1 to mini.
with the introduction of self organized one make series, that concept seems to be forgotten and lost.
now every fragment pays there own organizing team for a job they already should have paied for with the licens. and clubs no longer work for free aswell ! its no longer all clubs that hire circuits and sell racetime to competitors direct ( over the msa granted championship status ) - its commercial organizing companies !
so you now pay your msa, the track, your series organizer and the event organizer, and all want theire share !
you still wonder why entry fees get ever higher ?
all this whlie grids are falling, cause every championships hunting for a niche market to try and survive...

parts / tires: all the raised budgets as on above, and the fashion to be seen racing if you have too much money, rather than playing golf, you cannot blame the race part suppliers and tire people to not try and get theire share !
while surely some prices raised due to improved products, other seem to be raised to the point that it will still get paied, as in the overall picture its still peanuts ! you know... its easier to get away with stealing a million, if you deal in billions !

tires for example...
there is no longer a works organized championship for some of my cars.
i KNOW the organizers got money from the tire supplier, and 30% of each set went back in price funds ! there are no price funds any more now, but i still pay the same money for my tires... why ?

anyhow, we are all stupid !
apparently its possible to race on tires that last all season long, as its done in the us ! on control tires ! performance lasting ! and guess what ? they are a lot cheaper than any tire you could buy here aswell !

does it matter if you go a second slower if you safe a big chunk of your budget ?



so it seems as if ever fewer racers have the task of giving everyone who joined the party the same profit as many more racers did in the past !
if there is no cut made by the racers, and only moaned year after year, nothing will change !
all stop racing for a year, show people that your money is not for granted, and start from scratch ! nobody forces you to pay the prices asked !

also it seems very few peole are interested where theire money goes to !
how else could we be made paying two or more people for the same job ?

time keeping is just one point...
you pay the tool for the timekeepers ( transponder ), but theire services still went up in price according to some organizer justifying theire entry fees...

in my eyes racing as it used to be is dead !
the sad remains will ruin themselves if not a major point is made !
sadly it seems as you can only take on the people who take our money, if you can afford to throw some money in the ring to start from scratch !
but it could be done !