Falling or thriving grids?

[Al Weyman]

Some of that Motors TV stuff is crap though, they cant even afford a commentry! I dont get this, why are you discussing the drivers paying dont we pay enough already?

[Alfatim]

Al

The discussion is based around ideas on how to get more interest in falling grids, Im interested particularly because I would consider sponsoring some of the cost myself if it encouraged driver into a series.

It looks like the series in question may have just halved tyre costs, i wondered if racers would like to contribute towards affordable TV coverage, If no-one thinks its a good idea I wont waste my money.

I would however welcome constructive idea's to try and revive a dwindling grid size.

[Al Weyman]

I dont really think thats the answer, I tuned in to the Motors TV coverage of Great & British because I am out with them next weekend and wanted to see if they broadcast any of the support stuff (they don't) and could not believe how amaturish it was, even as a motor sport fan 5 minutes viewing was enough for me, Bathurst it was not! We have fair grids next weekend maybe the guys think they will be on TV (they won't)! Drop the entry fees to sub £100 and you will be amazed how many cars start turning out. I think that £170 for a 10 lap clubbie is just too much whether you have the money or not it is just poor value and IMO the route of the problem.

[Alfatim]

I completly agree with the cost issue, £170 for 10 laps is lousy.

BUT, I dont think it will drop, do you?

If not my issue is; can we do anything else to get more bums into race seats?

(Im a V6 man myself)

[Al Weyman]

Of course not unless JP sets a trend as it was Nicola Foulston who set the trend the otherway. Thats the reason though IMO and if it does not change then the grids will never be what they were.

[JamesH]

Have to agree with Al. Get the costs of the races down and the cars will turn up. The only reason I only did half a season was cost of entry fees (and one big crunch which ended season a meeting early), and the 750MC with whom I race has some of the cheapest entries of any series - no real profit to make, or people to pay - but still at least £130 at the cheapest circuits. It's not their fault - the circuit hire is so high (why??) that they have to charge through the nose.

James

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by JamesH

- the circuit hire is so high (why??)....

Simple, all tracks, be it in the UK or even Belgium, only want to make a profit (and rather a big one).

Getting bums on seats isn't easy. Too many things to do nowadays for young folk in the weekend. Wasn't it for the older people something like: either you go to church or go to the races.
Plus prices at the gate are far too high anyhow. 12 quid for a clubbie??? Even for the better ones it is still far too much, a fiver would do and would bring folk back after a while once the word gets spread.
But that is another problem, how do they expect non-racing people to find out if there is something going on near their home?

Getting prices down for racers and spectators would be a start to fill seats and races. More advertising in the local press would help as well.

Only problem is nobody wants to do it.

[Speedy5]

I can understand the circuits have a cost to bear with people at the gate and catering etc., but isn't that part of the circuit hire charges? What is the point of the circuits keeping the rights to the gate money when there is hardly any at all, and may not even meet 'gate costs'? And I agree that £12 for a clubbie is too much, it needs to be in single figures.
So get circuit owners to relinquish the gate money rights for an amount that covers their 'gate costs' (surely not £10k), and then all gate receipts are split 75/25 between organising (and now promoting) club and circuit. The circuit doesn't lose out because it gets it's 'gate costs' and maybe more, and the club has a good reason to promote the meeting. And the gate cost should a nice single figure like £8.
Am I dreaming?

[Alfatim]

Ok so if circuit cost is at the root of entry fee problems it would make sense for far-sighted circuit owners to drop gate fees.

We are in the business (Easytrack) of hiring circuits up to 80 times a year, and the circuit cost presented to anyone hiring takes into account a figure inclusive of required profit.

That being the case the best move would be to drop gate fee's (or drastically change) to encourage racers and spectators alike. Far too many grids are struggling and not that much is being done to secure the future of grassroots motorsport.

The obvious question now is, 'Is there any likelyhood of any circuits listening to this idea, or do they only see immediete profit not long term operation?

It also seems, according to most that TV wouldnt encourage them, so subsidised entry fee's would be the way forward?

[carsten.meurer]

circuit hire cost is surely going away from the market !

problem is that club racing is forced to often use facilities that are planed
for top level motorsport, without having the comfort of the big pits and cosy
vip suits.
also i do understand that a company like msv needs offices, but does it need
to be as big as foulstone complex ?
would you be prepared to accept that i charge twice as much for a helmet design, arguing that i needed those posh offices and workshop ?

part of the problem might be that airfields and street circuits ( not in uk ) are
a thing of the past ! that gives permanent circuits no competition.

it goes with current fashion to raise prices, and increase manager wages and
profits in all parts of buisness world.
and i see the point that today the land the circuits are on is worth more than 20 years ago.

so in short my list of problems to adress to get full grids is:
- get rid of as much burocracy for competitors as possible, to safe hassle for regulars, and make it easier for starters.

- get running cost ( tire prices, entry fees ) down to a level that does not scare people away.

- sort classes to a minimum to avoid similar cars running in three low grid races exept one full grid

- maybe invent a 'road going' class for newcomers to allow them to get in at all

- do not bank on spectators ! they are a thing of the past ! we are as unpopular with most people as the horse races, local football or swimming.
maybe even keep spectators out, if it brings insurance premiums down conciderably.

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

also i do understand that a company like msv needs offices, but does it need
to be as big as foulstone complex ?

Quick answer: The John Foulston Centre, (now the MSV Centre) was inherited with the Circuit from Octagon. However, only the Ground Floor and Basement are actual offices, and even the Ground Floor has quite a chunk taken out for the Reception Area. The top two floors are multi-functioning Conference and Hospitality Areas, which I can assure everybody, do bring in quite a substantial amount of Revenue. Conference Suites during the week, Hospitality Suites at larger Race Meetings, and such items as Wedding Receptions, and Trade Shows. So I think that the actual office space is minimal to run a Group with five Circuits!

[Al Weyman]

Did you know according to the article in Motorsport JP paid just 15 million for the 4 circuits, sound a bargain today does'nt it? Alos one of his co owners is John Britain, I was in court with him once (next case in, all motoring offences nothing serious) as they had a garage up the road and he had to stand down as the lady beak knew him so they chucked the book at me instead as I was next in! :-(

As far as spectators entries I can only reliterate the tale of a few weeks back I invited a friend to attend a Snet meeting and he motorcycled all the way there but when they wanted £28 for him and his kid he turned around and went home!

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by archaic gold

The top two floors are multi-functioning Conference and Hospitality Areas, which I can assure everybody, do bring in quite a substantial amount of Revenue. Conference Suites during the week, Hospitality Suites at larger Race Meetings, and such items as Wedding Receptions, and Trade Shows.

great !
if so much of the infrastructure earns money, they can stop adding it on the bill for circuit hire !
somehow i do not have the feeling it is done...

[nyssa7]

You run a business and you can persuade say 100 people to fork out £200 each for your product

...or by dropping the price to £100 you can get 200 people to pay. Same income but more people to cater for = more time and effort needed to administer them

So what do you do - you're in business, you take the higher profit option of course

So why does anyone think its in the circuit owners' interest to drop prices if they can find enough of us mugs to pay the higher prices?

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

- do not bank on spectators ! they are a thing of the past ! we are as unpopular with most people as the horse races, local football or swimming.

Don't agree Carsten, if you see the number of spectators at Combe (just one example), it is huge. Same goes for other lots of other meetings.
Only thing: people need to know something is going on. Agreed, modern (general non-racing) spectators have become lazy, they just don't bother that much anymore as there are so many things you can do in a weekend.

Originally Posted by nyssa7

So why does anyone think its in the circuit owners' interest to drop prices if they can find enough of us mugs to pay the higher prices?

It is always the same problem: do you earn more by charging less and selling lots more stuff, or by keeping prices high and selling only a few things, hence living of a big but single profit?
This is the same story that has been going on for ages in Belgium with bus fares. Fares are high as the companies loose money, therefore no travellers. Now if they brought the prices down, it would bring lots more people on the buses, therfore more money.
What was there first: the egg or the chicken?

You are correct in saying that there is always somebody daft enough to pay too much money.
The tracks could do bring the hire cost down, as the prices are getting close to being silly. But as long as there are people willing to give that amount of money, it will never happen.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by nyssa7

You run a business and you can persuade say 100 people to fork out £200 each for your product

...or by dropping the price to £100 you can get 200 people to pay. Same income but more people to cater for = more time and effort needed to administer them

So what do you do - you're in business, you take the higher profit option of course

So why does anyone think its in the circuit owners' interest to drop prices if they can find enough of us mugs to pay the higher prices?

You could always take the Disney view and realise that twice the number of people ALSO means twice the number of burgers, cans of coke, programmes, baseball caps etc etc etc being sold.

UK companies really have no idea of how to exploit customers like the sceptics do.

[Al Weyman]

Is that Sceptics or septics Dennis? :-) But yes I do agree and I once got an answer from a high ranking official when I asked the question 'Is it better to have a full grid of 30 cars each paying £60 each or 15 cars each paying £120 each?' Answer, '15 as it means less work for us'. When I asked about entertainment for the spectators I was told that it is of no consequence as they don't get the revenue. So work it out if that's the attitude/scenario are you surprised its all going down the tube.

[carsten.meurer]

still i think it a case of making racing worth watching again before you go out
and try to promote it to bring spectators back in !

or you will never get them in again because they are sure its not worth it ever
again !

the racing needs to become healthy again, and that can only come by full
grids, that offer a good show and offer racing for healthy budgets.

the budgets to go racing have risen a lot recently, as relatively more wealthy
people felt it fashinable to be seen racing.
often they choose big cars in order to 'buy' higher up positions.
at least in germany this has killed all the racing with small cars.

problem is those wealthy people loose interest pretty soon in many cases,
leaving a gap on the grid. they are not as enthusiastic about it as the old
fashioned racer is.

in return the higher costs all round force a lot of racers to take a season off
every 2 or 3 years at least. just to recover from the overdrafts and get the
car back in a worthwhile state which they can not afford during a season.

i am sure that a third of all potential cars are laid off because people need a
break !

for interest...
where do all the WHT ff1600 race over the summer ?
are there 150 plus cars out continiously, or are people dusting theire cars off
for a prestigious, relatively cheap to run event ?

if its the late, maybe a mini series of four races could do the same !
maybe 6 tires for all four races and very low entry fees...

[Ian Sowman]

Last year 152 drivers/cars (give or take - some shared) did the WHT - compared to, I think, 374 drivers who took part in FF1600 during the season in the UK and Ireland. No doubt some duplication of cars among that, but still only a fraction of the available cars were out there.

[dikko]

It does seem circuits don't need spectators and if the original question & concern is how to keep costs down to keep grids up then maybe the answer is not to have them.
Does anyone know if the circuits want spectators?
Does anyone know if extra spectators came along that it would make such a financial difference to our entry fees?
If so, how many? A 75:25 agreement sounds very logical and we would start promoting tomorrow I'm sure.
The clubs might do a far better job at promotion.
The circuits, it seems, are now succesfully entertaining the enthusiastic public all week by having them drive around the tracks in their cars and on their bikes on Corporate & Track Days. There are no spectators to speak of and therefore no extra overheads and everyone using the facilities are very happy. Cheap, easy to run and probably profitable...(very?).
It seems this is where the money is made and probably more could be made at the weekend when people aren't working instead of us using valuable track time racing. This may be what we have to compete with.
Racing on a Wednesday without spectators might not be so daft. It might also bring the entry fees down to a sane level. We might be a bit short of that very valuable asset though....The Marshall...

[andy97]

I live 1 mile from Donington Park &, as a race fan (or would not be on here!), I keep well up to date with what events are on. However, I virtually never see any promotion of events in the local media and yet the catchment area - lets say one hours drive from Donington must include the major cities of Nottingham, Derby, the Birmingham conurbation and Sheffield. Is it any wonder there are no spectators. Apart from th hardcore Autosport, Motorsport News and 10 tenths readers no one realises that there is anything on.

[Eddy V]

Circuits do need spectators. Otherwise there will be no revenue from rented stalls, food outlets, raceprogrammes and many more things.
The problem is that most trackowners have become complacent about that issue, as their track is rented out often enough for track days and things. And that is easy earned money, hardly any personal needed.

The same goes for me as for Andy, I live about 15 miles from Zolder, if I wasn't a racing man, I wouldn't even know it is there. The same applies for Spa, albeit 50 miles.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by andy97

I live 1 mile from Donington Park &, as a race fan (or would not be on here!), I keep well up to date with what events are on. However, I virtually never see any promotion of events in the local media and yet the catchment area - lets say one hours drive from Donington must include the major cities of Nottingham, Derby, the Birmingham conurbation and Sheffield. Is it any wonder there are no spectators. Apart from th hardcore Autosport, Motorsport News and 10 tenths readers no one realises that there is anything on.

And believe me there is one big event on this weekend so make sure you make it! The Classic Touring Car Racing Club has a fantastic entry across all its 4 races with no less than 4 (maybe 5) Camaros entered and a seasons best in Classic Thunder and I believe in Pre-66 as well. Plus all the Mini, Ginetta and Radical action, its looking real good.

This brings me back on topic and may be a relevant point. I have raced in pre 74 and Clssic Thunder with the club this year and in CT at least some of the grids have been poor so explain to me this, on the last race of the season, nights and weather drawing in we have a seasons record of 27(?) cars entered. So why have they all come out of the woodwork now and where were you guys earlier in the season?

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

This brings me back on topic and may be a relevant point. I have raced in pre 74 and Clssic Thunder with the club this year and in CT at least some of the grids have been poor so explain to me this, on the last race of the season, nights and weather drawing in we have a seasons record of 27(?) cars entered. So why have they all come out of the woodwork now and where were you guys earlier in the season?

Are there many Mod Prods entered?

[Al Weyman]

DOnt know Dennis as I don't know their names and there is no separate class but it may account for the upsurge, fancy some!