Sportscar Racing and Global Warming

[old man]

As we appear to have yet another new scientific report coming out today (February 3rd 2007) saying that we, as humans, are major contributors to global warming should the racing sportscar world be taking action, perhaps drastic action to show that we care about it and are trying to do something positive?

Things that occur to me start with some actions already on going like alternative fuels to standard petrol or gas, is what is happening enough or should these receive more of a regulatory push?

Should we look to reducing engine sizes in LMP and GT classes setting say a 2 litre limit for LMP1 and 1 litre for LM2, similar sizes for GT classes?

Should we have more regional championships to cut down travel with just a few very top meetings like Le Mans or Sebring/Daytona that would be "finals" for which regional championships qualify?

Should we find some way of limiting the carbon footprint, spectators attending meetings have an impact?

All sports make an impact because of the latter but Motor Racing by it's nature could attract the attention of the legislators and perhaps we should beet them to the draw

In the 50's and 60's GP cars were down to 1.5.litres, F3 1.0litre and lots of 1100cc and 2000cc cars raced in the sports categories. Since those days engines have got bigger and yes, more efficient but could we do more and still have exciting racing?

[renkadima]

Well the obvious thing to do would be to stop racing, but I'm not sure that that would go down too well around these parts.

In terms of the sport's profile, the promotion and adoption of bio fuels would have a positive influence in spreading awareness that such alternatives exist (although there is a huge debate about the viability or effectiveness of such fuels.) However, the biggest carbon footprint by far for the sport lies in getting to the races and test sessions, as Old Man suggests.

There are many professional drivers out there who must spend half their lives in the air. They are using commercial flights and so are no different to the rest of us, except in frequency, and they are just trying to make a living. How do you legislate against that? To prevent a driver flying would require compensation, and who's going to pay that?

That is just one example of the 'problem'. It would need the FIA and other such bodies to unilaterally impose carbon allowances on teams and drivers to make a difference (before the politicians step in and hit the easy targets first). A nice thought, but can you see it happening in your lifetime?

[canam]

In this vein, Creation has already contracted to offset its carbon footprint with a company called Climate Care. It was reported on dsc some time ago and I think was posted on Creation's website as well. Quite interesting although there has been a lot of negative press about these 'carbon offset' companies.

This is big issue for the sport and I am disappointed that there is not more leadership by the promoters. On the bio-fuel side, the ACO's response (lack of) is very poor. In the US, there is some movement but it is all down to a bio mixture with petrol. When Nasamax ran their car, it was entirely bio-fuel. The ACO have gone backwards on this--until of course Audi or Peugeot want to do it!!!

[AU N EGL]

This one is difficult for me.

My race car no emissions gadgets on. I run 93-94 octane ( about 100 octane in Europe). My wife’s car, same make but a road car, also runs 92-93 octane. My Daily driver pick-up runs 87 octane. Wife’s car and my pickup have all the emission components required.

We test the two road vehicles for emissions by state law. And I do test my race car for the heck of it. Guess which one produces the least amount of pollutants and CO ?? and on a mile per mile bases ?

Bio-fuels are another challenge.

On a mile per mile bases, doesn't bio-fuels produce less energy, and produce more CO then petroleum ?? Let alone cost more to produce then petroleum?

Then there is the political point of bio-fuels and government subsidies to pay farmers for the over production of grains?? Have to use that grain some place. Bio-fuels are the answer?

On an average race weekend, isn't the amount of pollutant and CO produced less the ONE passengers jet taking off at an airport ? Let alone the hundreds of daily flights ?

With the issue of Global warming itself:

There are many ppl who say the sky is falling and we are all doomed to die as the hole in the ozone will suck us all out to space.

Others who say the Global warming is a crock dreamed up by environmental extremists.

Or most educated climatologist believe at this point in time the earth is in its 25 year cycle of high to low temperate within a million year cycle of tempetature extreems.

Who is correct??

[canam]

There are always many sides to a story. Axiomatically, a reduction in carbon emissions from current levels is a good thing. Whether that will have a positive impact on climatic changes is open to debate; but can we afford to take the risk for our children and grandchildren?

On the subject true biofuels, the key point is that they produce as much CO2 as they absorb (when they are growing)--so they are neutral. Fossil fuels only produce CO2.

The upcoming report results from 6 years of work by more than 2,000 scientists worldwide. Whatever point of view one may have, it is a fact that 11 of 12 warmest years since 1850 have occurred since 1995. Levels of CO2 in the atmosphere and increases in global temperature are higher than any time over the past 650,000 years. It may fit into the million year cycle etc. bu I would rather not take the risk when we an do something about it.

Sorry about that folks, I really am a 'beardie'!!...quick, I gotta go to a race track and smell some petrol fumes.

[old man]

All good points Au N EGL but the problem we may find oursleves faced with and my reason for tyring to get a debate going is that scientists from 135 countries or something like that are agreed that mankind is partly to blame and MUST do something. They are meeting in Paris today to discuss it and we may find ourselves a sitting duck at some stage when governments decide to act. It would be better to set an example than to be made an example of!

Perhaps the various technical geniuses and administrators who read these threads will have some good ideas but I am just afraid it will not go away

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by old man

Perhaps the various technical geniuses and administrators who read these threads will have some good ideas but I am just afraid it will not go away

Correct it should be addressed. Unfortunitly, I feel poltics gets in the way.

Originally Posted by canam

Sorry about that folks, I really am a 'beardie'!!...quick, I gotta go to a race track and smell some petrol fumes.

I think a lot of us need that fix too.

[eddsc]

What a complicated subject this is.
Motor sport has to be seen to be doing something, but the wider issue is all the air travel involved, isn't it?
Bringing politics into it, and as Dubya still doesn't seem to recognise that there is a problem (he thinks its dependency on middle east oil suppliers doesn't he?), the latest tax on air travellers imposed by HM Government seems a perfect opportunity to demonstrate to the likes of the US and China that action is being taken by others.
As far as I know, that tax (which I agree with) is going into the government's coffers isn't it?
Shouldn't they be allocating that to, say, solar heating grants for homes? A quick calculation suggests that perhaps 200,000 homes a year could be converted to solar heating, more if householders paid a contribution to the cost. Instantly the UK is setting a good example. But perhaps I'm just being too simplistic...
Perhaps it's too late anyway. Millions of people are doomed - but isn't the cost of not doing something greater than actually doing something?
We'll see where this govt. really stands when it comes to a planning inquiry into a new runway somewhere. Personally, I think no new runways should be provided, and the cost of air travel should go up.
Perhaps you'd better get back to motor sport's role ....

[ss_collins]

You all need to be shaken up and have the obvious shown to you - sportscar racing should be the test and proving ground for greener technologies, biofuels , electric hybrids, full ev, Cryogenic hydrogen, methane derivatives etc..

Thats goes for motorsport as a whole.

[canam]

Originally Posted by old man

They are meeting in Paris today to discuss it and we may find ourselves a sitting duck at some stage when governments decide to act. It would be better to set an example than to be made an example of!

Quite true. If the racing industry can show it has its own house in order, it is less vulnerable to draconian measures being imposed upon it. Given all the other issues (safety, noise pollution etc), complacency is not an option.

[AU N EGL]

methane derivatives ? No I dont need to watch 30 min with the Prime Minister or any other poltical debates?

Rember there is BS on both sides of the fence.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

You all need to be shaken up and have the obvious shown to you - sportscar racing should be the test and proving ground for greener technologies, biofuels , electric hybrids, full ev, Cryogenic hydrogen, methane derivatives etc..

Thats goes for motorsport as a whole.

Absolutely - the race series that grasps this quickest will have a real PR coup on its hands and the ACO with its multi class racing is in the best position to do this as it can introduce a class for green technology cars easily.

A simple announcment giving a timescale and an aim for say 2010 will surely attract the manufacturers with the increasingly high profile of green technology.

[Erki]

Global warming or not, we shouldn't use energies that are irreplaceable and make town streets smell less than pleasant and walking on them unhealthy.

I'm not entirely sure biofuel is the bestest way to go. Big fields to grow stuff would be needed and making them would increase the erosion which is not a good thing. Electricity or hydrogen sound better to me but I'm not scientist though!

[AU N EGL]

The ACO and FIA are starting to do something. Manufactures are also looking at alteratives.

How many club and semi-proffesional racers can afford and run the new technolgies?

and who many racers themselves are engineers to adapt their current engine to run an bio-fuel?

[old man]

Originally Posted by Mal

Absolutely - the race series that grasps this quickest will have a real PR coup on its hands and the ACO with its multi class racing is in the best position to do this as it can introduce a class for green technology cars easily.

A simple announcment giving a timescale and an aim for say 2010 will surely attract the manufacturers with the increasingly high profile of green technology.

Now this the sort of thing I had in mind when starting the thread, it is a major problem and we should be seen to be doing things or someone will start talking of bans and restrictions so we get all political

Get our retaliation in first

[ss_collins]

exactly I wrote a column to that effect in Racecar a couple of month ago

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Erki

Global warming or not, we shouldn't use energies that are irreplaceable and make town streets smell less than pleasant and walking on them unhealthy.

I'm not entirely sure biofuel is the bestest way to go. Big fields to grow stuff would be needed and making them would increase the erosion which is not a good thing. Electricity or hydrogen sound better to me but I'm not scientist though!

You have hit one nail directly on the head; here in Minn. farmers let land sit fallow because they entered into a contract, with penalty if broken, to remedy the fence-row to fence-row farming that had caused winter dust storms even up here twenty years ago.(It was odd to drive along on a below zero winter day, and see dust blowing across the road.)

Well with the alcohol bio-fuel scam gong, many farmers are considering breaking the contract and planty fence-row to fence-row again, penalty be damned.
Of course due to the circumstances, local politicians are going to see if they cannot get the penalties reduced to a minimum.

Carbon dioxide, want to eliminate a major polluter, start a war, millions of polluters will be eliminated quickly.
No one seems to want to say that since people are breeding like rats, the carbon dioxide level output is going to go up every year.

All the Chicken-Little scenarios boldly ignore the statement made by a dooms day speaker several years ago, (at least that gent did not try to sell a quick fix) that even the most drastic things we do, will do nothing for us, or even our childrens children, it will take one hundred years, before anyone knows if it makes any difference; therefore we must act now, to save our chlidren's children's children.

It is amazing, twenty years ago winter temps here were in the thirty to forty below 0 range, and in those twenty years man is so powerful he has destroyed God's ability to produce a real winter.

I think I will just get a good book and read about the canals on Mars.
Bob

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by old man

As we appear to have yet another new scientific report coming out today (February 3rd 2007) saying that we, as humans, are major contributors to global warming should the racing sportscar world be taking action, perhaps drastic action to show that we care about it and are trying to do something positive?

Things that occur to me start with some actions already on going like alternative fuels to standard petrol or gas, is what is happening enough or should these receive more of a regulatory push?

Should we look to reducing engine sizes in LMP and GT classes setting say a 2 litre limit for LMP1 and 1 litre for LM2, similar sizes for GT classes?

Should we have more regional championships to cut down travel with just a few very top meetings like Le Mans or Sebring/Daytona that would be "finals" for which regional championships qualify?

Should we find some way of limiting the carbon footprint, spectators attending meetings have an impact?

All sports make an impact because of the latter but Motor Racing by it's nature could attract the attention of the legislators and perhaps we should beet them to the draw

In the 50's and 60's GP cars were down to 1.5.litres, F3 1.0litre and lots of 1100cc and 2000cc cars raced in the sports categories. Since those days engines have got bigger and yes, more efficient but could we do more and still have exciting racing?

why the hell should racing adapt because of global warming?, racing probably contributes about 0.000001 to the enviroment and global warming, christ 2litre LMP1 cars and 1 litre LMP2 cars, my car has a 1.1 engine and is blown away by a bottom of the range ford focus.

im not saying that gonna be true for racing but christ this would be the END for me literally, im sorry if i have flamed you but there are much bigger contributers to global warming, take power plants, jumbo jets and aeroplanes.

sort the big problems out that are everyday, not ruin peoples enjoyment because a group of nerds think the sky is falling.

global warming is inevitable, we cant stop it only slow it down and we are only basically trying to defy the inevitable.

[TWK]

IMHO Automobile's recent article Across China by Bluetec Benz provides some perspective. For all the "start somewhere" talk, as long as so-called "emerging economies" like the People's Republic get a "free pass," (as they do in Kyoto), you're going to have a hell of a time getting a political consensus. I know some of the Europeans here are going to excoriate me for this, but that's the real reason that Kyoto never had a chance of ratification in this country...not simply Bush's opposition. It simply doesn't work that way. At the grass roots here, you'd be surprised at the level of understanding of that. Get a treaty that really works, not that political band-aid that allows Upper Volta to crow about having signed something that doesn't affect them in the least, and you'll find support here.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by old man

As we appear to have yet another new scientific report coming out today (February 3rd 2007) saying that we, as humans, are major contributors to global warming should the racing sportscar world be taking action, perhaps drastic action to show that we care about it and are trying to do something positive?

Things that occur to me start with some actions already on going like alternative fuels to standard petrol or gas, is what is happening enough or should these receive more of a regulatory push?

Should we look to reducing engine sizes in LMP and GT classes setting say a 2 litre limit for LMP1 and 1 litre for LM2, similar sizes for GT classes?

Should we have more regional championships to cut down travel with just a few very top meetings like Le Mans or Sebring/Daytona that would be "finals" for which regional championships qualify?

Should we find some way of limiting the carbon footprint, spectators attending meetings have an impact?

All sports make an impact because of the latter but Motor Racing by it's nature could attract the attention of the legislators and perhaps we should beet them to the draw

In the 50's and 60's GP cars were down to 1.5.litres, F3 1.0litre and lots of 1100cc and 2000cc cars raced in the sports categories. Since those days engines have got bigger and yes, more efficient but could we do more and still have exciting racing?

We should do some of these things, but only to increase sportscar racings profile, not for environmental reasons.

The report is by a corrupt organisation and conviniently backs up corrupt governments plans to introduce more 'environmental' taxes.

[Lightning Bug]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

sort the big problems out that are everyday, not ruin peoples enjoyment because a group of nerds think the sky is falling.

global warming is inevitable, we cant stop it only slow it down and we are only basically trying to defy the inevitable.

The big problem is this kind of attitude. Don't you care about making the world a habitable place for our grandchildren, even if we've long gone?

[TWK]

To some extent, each of these little "feel good" activities - and I would put changes in motorsports into such a catagory - makes the whole problem worse. People think they are actually accomplishing something, and as a result then go merrily on their way, while the real causes of the problem remain.

The rediculous panic over nuclear power - and the US is the worst here - has of course meant an increase in coal-fueled power generation around the globe. How does that help? Those touting electric cars might want to think about where that electrical charge is going to come from. There's little excess in the electrical generation grid now. Wind generators? Ever seen the blight caused by that solution?

What's needed is a true global approach that deals with the big problems first, such as industrial polution. If you can't knock off the "low hanging fruit" then these other activities are a big waste.

[old man]

Fascinating stuff here, my whole point is that a sport that is a high profile user of fuel will get the green lobby going at some stage and, as I said before, better to set an example than be made into one.

It does not matter if we agree that it is happening, or that others use more, I travel on business and realise that when doing so I have a heavy carbon footprint but the sport has to do as Canam said earlier, put its house in order to head off draconian measures. I believe we are vulnerable in the next few years if we are not seen to be doing something.

[The Badger]

We could have rubber band powered cars .... that would solve the polution issue and the noise issue in one fell swoop !!!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TWK

To some extent, each of these little "feel good" activities - and I would put changes in motorsports into such a catagory - makes the whole problem worse. People think they are actually accomplishing something, and as a result then go merrily on their way, while the real causes of the problem remain.

The rediculous panic over nuclear power - and the US is the worst here - has of course meant an increase in coal-fueled power generation around the globe. How does that help? Those touting electric cars might want to think about where that electrical charge is going to come from. There's little excess in the electrical generation grid now. Wind generators? Ever seen the blight caused by that solution?

What's needed is a true global approach that deals with the big problems first, such as industrial polution. If you can't knock off the "low hanging fruit" then these other activities are a big waste.

I agree, especially with the second paragraph!
Also the production of hydrogen for fuel cell cars require's a large amount of electricity also.

This one is a huge can of worms! Not that it does not need to be addressed but there is no simple solution, period!

And most of you can't stand the first step in that direction in our little community, the R-10 and now 908.

Safely in my bomb shelter now!
L.P.