IMSA DPi Discussion

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I will l just leave those two juxtaposed and let others sort it out.

There is no juxtaposed issue to sort out. The Dallara is extremely fast in a straight line and then gives up all of the time in the corners. It's been said they've stripped so much downforce from it that it feels like the car glides about and isn't connected to the tarmac

The regular (high) downforce kit however is excellent, as shown at Silverstone and Monza.

[chernaudi]

Rebellion won't run Watkins Glen, citing late delivery of their spare car from Oreca.

[carbsmith]

Doesn't feel like much of a surprise. I wouldn't risk money on them showing up for Petit, myself.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

There is no juxtaposed issue to sort out. The Dallara is extremely fast in a straight line and then gives up all of the time in the corners. It's been said they've stripped so much downforce from it that it feels like the car glides about and isn't connected to the tarmac

The regular (high) downforce kit however is excellent, as shown at Silverstone and Monza.

Yes, the Intersport Racing school of prototype set up - Trim her out and everything else will fall into place... or not.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Yes, the Intersport Racing school of prototype set up - Trim her out and everything else will fall into place... or not.

The best school.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Yes, the Intersport Racing school of prototype set up - Trim her out and everything else will fall into place... or not.

Everything else usually fell out of place..... Except the supena

[fieldodreams79]

But it sure was entertaining and fun to watch, while it lasted.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Yes, the Intersport Racing school of prototype set up - Trim her out and everything else will fall into place... or not.

Don't recall "trim her out" so much as "Jack up that boost some more, again."

And pieces fell everywhere.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Don't recall "trim her out" so much as "Jack up that boost some more, again."

And pieces fell everywhere.

Here's one of the better examples of max power, low downforce, fun while it lasts setups:

https://youtu.be/_ZtBah7nP04

[joeb]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Here's one of the better examples of max power, low downforce, fun while it lasts setups:

https://youtu.be/_ZtBah7nP04

Watching that never gets old. And the Lola was such a pretty car but the best part about that video is not just John driving to the front but it is the commentary going nuts from Calvin and Greg. Because this was a regular occurrence but for some reason they thought it was outstanding in this situation.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Here's one of the better examples of max power, low downforce, fun while it lasts setups:

https://youtu.be/_ZtBah7nP04

Thing with the Itnersport Lola is that it wasn't JUST that they'd trim it out to such crazy levels, it's that the AER turbo was quite a bit more powerful than most gave credit for. Unfortunately it also tended to be unreliable.

Originally Posted by joeb

Watching that never gets old. And the Lola was such a pretty car

The 2008 Intersport livery is, IMO, one of the best paint jobs I've ever seen on a race car. It suited that Lola chassis PERFECTLY.

but the best part about that video is not just John driving to the front but it is the commentary going nuts from Calvin and Greg. Because this was a regular occurrence but for some reason they thought it was outstanding in this situation.

Well, it was outstanding that particular time. It wasn't a common occurrence prior to this case. That was their first full season with that Lola.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Here's one of the better examples of max power, low downforce, fun while it lasts setups:

https://youtu.be/_ZtBah7nP04

Classic clip, always brings a smile to my face.

Then I remember his financial felonies that probably funded this, and the smile is wiped right off.

[fieldodreams79]

Yep. All fun and games until Field hit someone (saw him take out the late Paul Newman in person) or until John Q. Law catches up, which we all saw.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Yep. All fun and games until Field hit someone (saw him take out the late Paul Newman in person) or until John Q. Law catches up, which we all saw.

Indeed, saw him try and get past the DeFerran P1 Acura in the wet going into turn 10 at petit. DeFerran was having a great race and was ahead of Audi and Peugeot on pace, but needless to say, Jon didn't make the pass cleanly. We are getting slightly off topic here, but I always wondered how Jon would have acted if he had a and reliable car like an Audi to play with. Would he still have been as fast or would the situation have changed driving Style?

[Maelochs]

I always thought of Jon Field as a turn-it-up-to-11, "what does 'consequences' mean?", over-the-edge nutjob. His financial dealings, when revealed, only reinforced that thought.

He ran like a rocket and blew up, but even knowing that would happen, never backed off. Classic cocaine-addict behavior (not saying he was) of just keep doing more until you run out and crash, and that will suck, but don't think about it, just do more.

No concern for his own safety or anyone else's.

Always fun to watch until he grenaded.

I had no idea they won P2 le mans in 2004 ... was looking for where his son ended up and stumbled across that. Hard to imagine the team lasting 24 laps, let alone 24 hours. ... and apparently won P2 overall in in 2005?

The last I see of Clint is a PC ride in 2011.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I had no idea they won P2 le mans in 2004 ... was looking for where his son ended up and stumbled across that. Hard to imagine the team lasting 24 laps, let alone 24 hours. ... and apparently won P2 overall in in 2005?

In 2004, P2 only had 6 entries, only 2 finished, and they were the bottom finishing class. They were 50 laps off of the GT winner.

It's easy to forget how bad LMP2/LM657 was back in the day.

[Maelochs]

I always thought of Jon Field as a turn-it-up-to-11, "what does 'consequences' mean?", over-the-edge nutjob. His financial dealings, when revealed, only reinforced that thought.

He ran like a rocket and blew up, but even knowing that would happen, never backed off. Classic cocaine-addict behavior (not saying he was) of just keep doing more until you run out and crash, and that will suck, but don't think about it, just do more.

No concern for his own safety or anyone else's.

Always fun to watch until he grenaded.

I had no idea they won P2 le mans in 2004 ... was looking for where his son ended up and stumbled across that. Hard to imagine the team lasting 24 laps, let alone 24 hours. ... and apparently won P2 overall in in 2005?

The last I see of Clint is a PC ride in 2011.

[fieldodreams79]

Outside of all the antics, both Clint and Jon were quick and brought a little excitement to the series.

I miss the Lolas and some the little privateers that we had then. DPi doesn't really encourage that...well, and Lola is no more.

[chernaudi]

With the rumors of a possible Toyota or (IMO more likely) Porsche scale back or pull out potentially happening at the end of the season (could be the news that John Dagys has mentioned, though without details, and Hindy has been making hints that Porsche could be on the way out at least as a full time entry), if that happens, could we see an ACO version of DPI is a cheap entry level factory alternative to the current LMP1 rules.

Namely, could we see a hybrid of the current LMP1 rules and DPI, as far as having cheaper cars (ability to use stock block engines, reintroduction of air restrictors instead of fuel flow meters, and DPI like rules but with much more open development)?

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Namely, could we see a hybrid of the current LMP1 rules and DPI, as far as having cheaper cars (ability to use stock block engines, reintroduction of air restrictors instead of fuel flow meters, and DPI like rules but with much more open development)?

If we are going to speculate wildly ...

I can see the whole hybrid thing going away. An LMP1-L class would be much better subscribed and Much less expensive ... and much easier to sell the Boards of Directors.

It is easier to explain losing when you aren't spend several hundred million euros to lose. Porsche could easily field a team foe a quarter of that, and could also sell customer cars .. the way it always had been until P1-H came along.

DPi and P1-H could be balanced or coordinated somehow ... factory involvement wouldn't be an issue any more, and teams could maybe have more freedom to modify the chassis and bodywork ... since it wouldn't necessarily be a spending war ...

There could be a P1-F and P1-P fpr factories and privateers, even, with spending caps on P1-P and modification caps on P1-F ... so factories couldn't spend millions for a hundredth-second edge (thus driving the cost out of reach) and privateers could experiment to their hearts' content within a budget (which would hopefully keep the factories out of P1-P.)

And sure, after five or seven years teams would have extracted everything form the chassis, and Then spending a hundred million for the slightest edge would start up ... at which time the rules would need to change or whatever.

To me the hybrid thing is a bust. The actual on-track racing isn't any better, the budgets surpass F1, and I don't (and apparently the manufacturers don't) see reasonable RoI.

If it were me, I would shrink Everything .... make 5 liter NA the biggest engine and 3 liters boosted, (or 2.5 or whatever seemed equitable) and start over with lower speeds. In five years we'd be back to where we are now anyway.

[Akrapovic]

I agree with most of what you're saying (except you can't balance LMP1-H and DPi), but I really don't agree with this -

The actual on-track racing isn't any better

The on-track racing has been amazing in that class. 2015 was absolutely phenomenal every week. 2016 had some amazing stuff too. I do think the LMP1 racing has been better since the hybrid introduction. Whether it's co-incidence or not is up for debate.

[chernaudi]

Racing would be better if there wasn't one way to do things being championed, be it by design or coincidence, by the rules. When cars have different strengths and weaknesses, you usually get better racing. When things get more spec or more inline with one way to do things, gaps might close, but you run into diminishing returns when everyone does basically the same thing.

That's why we had races like Audi vs Porsche in the ALMS late 2007, and Audi vs Porsche in 2015 at Spa and Silverstone. But with everyone now doing 8MJ gasoline hybrids, it's been Toyota (who've upped their game the past couple of seasons) basically curb stomping Porsche. Porsche have been able to minimize the damage with strategy, but on track, rarely has Porsche been able to match Toyota for speed so far this year.

Goes back to something that I don't like about modern racing, that almost all the good ideas have been thought up and implemented, or have been banned or just done to death.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The on-track racing has been amazing in that class. 2015 was absolutely phenomenal every week. 2016 had some amazing stuff too. I do think the LMP1 racing has been better since the hybrid introduction. Whether it's co-incidence or not is up for debate.

I have certainly enjoyed the racing ... but is it quantifiably Better than in years prior? No way to tell ... it is all subjective ... but I think ti was pretty great before hybrids as well.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Goes back to something that I don't like about modern racing, that almost all the good ideas have been thought up and implemented, or have been banned or just done to death.

This is why I think we need a major rules shakeup .... Even so, people know so much about suspensions and engines and aero it is hard to create differences ... but if there were multiple ways to get to the same solution ... like LPM900 and LMP675 were supposed to be: one huge and powerful, one light and lithe, both able to win ... or Porsche P2/Audi /P1 ....

Only problem I see though, is that if you devise a new formula which is slower (knowing that in time it will be just as fast---always is) people will complain because the numbers are smaller .... not that the racing is worse, but the number are smaller (they are only hitting 179 mph, and lapping Le mans 2.5 second s Slower!!!!!!)

[TF110]

I don't think the racing was much better before hybrids. You only had two teams competing for wins just like now (in the ILMC). Except they had diesel engines. In the ALMS it was a rule tweak and some more power for lmp2's that kept them with the R10's. Then when Audi left ALMS, it was Acura vs Porsche for a little bit until that was gone. Then you had the occasional p1 battle with Dyson vs the Acura with the latter cleaning up most the time. Now you got the same Cadillac winning, even if it starts at the rear of the prototypes The more things change, the more they stay the same!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't think the racing was much better before hybrids. You only had two teams competing for wins just like now (in the ILMC). Except they had diesel engines. In the ALMS it was a rule tweak and some more power for lmp2's that kept them with the R10's. Then when Audi left ALMS, it was Acura vs Porsche for a little bit until that was gone. Then you had the occasional p1 battle with Dyson vs the Acura with the latter cleaning up most the time. Now you got the same Cadillac winning, even if it starts at the rear of the prototypes The more things change, the more they stay the same!

Agreed. IMSA had some decent racing, but lets remember they balanced those P2s with the R10s to get that racing. And it was a bit fake anyway, because even when the Porsche P2s won, the Audis still got full points because it was a different class. So you might've had decent racing, but it was forced, and not fighting over anything.

I do think that WEC is providing better racing with the P1s than LMS did with the P1s back in the day. LMS was good, but some of the racing we've had recently is madness. But I also think we've got better racing all the way through. Remember how poor LMP2/LMP675 was a decade ago, and now how close it is.