Ferrari and light weight fuel?

[dcp2685]

Just read this on www.f1live.com

Apparently it could explain the quicker pace but is it legal? I know the rules say the refueling rig has to be the same but do the teams all use different types of fuel?

Kind of an interesting read.

[Kicking-back]

It is legal.

James Allen mentioned it during the Spanish Grand Prix.

[fog_shadow]

notice that neither Shell nor Ferrari are trying to deny any advantage that Shell fuels provide.

[Gt_R]

It's clear cut..it's clean. Nothing illegal about it...and it won't be significant in performance...rather it improves flexibility in races strategy and allowing a team to run more laps while qualifying on same fuel load in terms of weight.

[ff s conscience]

A typical specific gravity of a pump fuel is about 0.76. Meaning 1 litre weighs 760grams.

I believe Ferrari have got this down to about 580g.

Ruling says you must have a 99% mix of pump fuel in F1...but what is pump fuel?

well....a company like shell can set up a remote Bolivian production plant and churn out rocket fuel and skim some off as "production" samples for the FIA. Using 99% of this special formual gets them places.

I have sources that refused to comment when I asked them..."was it true that ferrari have 100kg of ballast on their car....."

[bosch!]

I too thought we had been down this road before and the FIA had mandated "pump fuel" basically. This would make a big difference during qualifying and explains why ferrari always seem to end up up front

Dont expect any action on this

[esorniloc]

Well if F1 is going to have a spec tyre, should it have a spec fuel?

[Adam43]

Of course it is legal. Fuel samples are one of the areas that is really policed strongly and checked by the FIA regularly. Check out the scrutineering reports on the FIA website.

Of course there are many ways of describing the fuel. Lighter is one way more effecient (by mass) is another.

I am a little narked that it might not be the same as the Optimax I used. Even in my car the weight penalty of a full tank is significant, especially as the tank has to be mounted in the standard position and is fairly high up.

Anyway, IIRC the pump spec. has to be available at a considerable number of stations.

[Glen]

None of the teams use "pump fuel" in the way that we know it - they all have special formulations which are legal and approved by the FIA.

I remember reading a long time ago about higher density fuels being used in the era when the volume of fuel was limited - the higher densisty gas had more latent energy in the same way that diesel contains more heat potential per litre than petrol.

I can't see a reason not to have a control fuel to be honest - the other half of the combustible stuff (the air) is already forced to be the same by the regulations, so it wouldn't trouble me greatly if the gas was all the same stuff.

[dcp2685]

Originally posted by Gt_R
It's clear cut..it's clean. Nothing illegal about it...and it won't be significant in performance...rather it improves flexibility in races strategy and allowing a team to run more laps while qualifying on same fuel load in terms of weight.

Or they can qualify with equal amounts worth of laps when compared to the other teams and get a performance boost with less weight. Still do a 3 stopper and be quicker all round.

If it's legal it's legal. No problem here...just interesting to see.

[dcp2685]

Originally posted by esorniloc
Well if F1 is going to have a spec tyre, should it have a spec fuel?

I don't know about that I have mixed feelings. Spec tires is one thing in that you won't have one company building tires specifically for one team. But each team i imagine use and make their own fuel to maximize the performance of the engine. Having spec fuel would provide a different technological challenge to the teams from a performance standpoint that I don't think they would necessarily want. I would think they would want to be able to make the fuel to meet their performance needs....not the preasure of the FIA. Iw htink there would be some push back on this....maybe not.

[hartham]

I agree on the technical side with engine development, but there is also a commercial case for having various fuel suppliers.... why cut out a major source of sponsorship funding (the oil companies) when all the fuels are policed heavily anyway..... allow some innovation if someone other than the teams is paying for it!!

[Knowlesy]

Fuel is one of those things that could be standardised I feel.......get rid of a performance variable that nobody really notices or cares about anyways.

Still, i much prefer todays fuel regs than pre-Hungary 1992's when we had those 'rocket fuels'. The fuel men had to wear what can only be described as gas masks when handling the stuff and it was a serious health risk. But apparently it gave a boost of about 70hp!

[Snrub]

I don't see how Ferrari/Shell could have produced a fuel that is massively lighter then everyone else's in terms of being able to complete more than say one lap on a 25 lap stint.

[bosch!]

If you can reduce the weight of the car in qualifying by say 10kgs you are going to get something like .2(?) of a second depending on the track which is obviously going to move you up the grid.

Another thought re ballast, has anyone considered that the ferrari may be so quick in the middle of races because some of that ballast is fuel? ie in the middle sectors of the race the car is down to say 580kg before refueling, as long as you finish the race at 600 ie with 30 litres of fuel ballast they cant touch them for it? Actually maybe 20 kg fuel + 10kg of marbles would do it.

Having said that my saab runs best on optimax so I cant really complain!

[RWC]

f1 cars don't run on fuel from any gas station
The fia gives very strict and complex rules as to what is allowable when designing fuels.the idea is for the fuels to not exeed premuim pump fuel in basic specifications.

The reason they don't allow fuel from actual roadside gas stations is of course that there would be way too many ways of substituting and cheating

[nkh]

Originally posted by bosch!
Another thought re ballast, has anyone considered that the ferrari may be so quick in the middle of races because some of that ballast is fuel? ie in the middle sectors of the race the car is down to say 580kg before refueling, as long as you finish the race at 600 ie with 30 litres of fuel ballast they cant touch them for it? Actually maybe 20 kg fuel + 10kg of marbles would do it.

Well, they tried something like it in 1982 (from: http://www.atlasf1.com/evolution/1980s.html):

1982 began with renewed crafty attempts to bypass the strict regulations. The new fashion was for underweight cars. As it was permitted to refill the cars with cooling fluid in the parc ferme after the race, Brabham and Williams built pseudo-brake coolers into their vehicles. The coolers' tanks were empty during the race, and were then filled up afterwards so as to make up the minimum weight of 580 kg. Nelson Piquet, champion of the previous year, and Keke Rosberg came in first and second at the Brazilian Grand Prix, but were subsequently disqualified. But it was not until a few weeks later that the FIA officially outlawed the cooling water trick.

It was water back then, and it was put into the car after the race, but the effect is pretty much the same. Oh, and, Brabhams Team Principle in 1982 was Bernie Ecclestone so he should know all about the trick

[avsfan733]

I'm pretty sure the weight is with everything but fuel in the car

[slicktoast]

Are they using that new low carb Shell Lite?

[Glen]

This fuel as ballast thing was a story last year too (but not relating to Ferrari) - the cars have a weight limit (with driver) which on paper is minus fuel, but in practice the cars are weighed just as they finish. There are massive problems with that though - especially if the race gets stopped before your last stop, when you would get found out... The rule actually says that you have to be over the weight at all times.

[bosch!]

Originally posted by nkh
Well, they tried something like it in 1982 (from: http://www.atlasf1.com/evolution/1980s.html):



It was water back then, and it was put into the car after the race, but the effect is pretty much the same. Oh, and, Brabhams Team Principle in 1982 was Bernie Ecclestone so he should know all about the trick

Wasnt Charlie Whiting involved in this little scam as well? yes Glen, if the race gets stopped before the last refulling you could be in sctick but in practice that means before about 70% race distance and i cant remember the last time that happened without a restart, can anybody? And even if you are caught you only get binned from the current race.

If I was running the FIA I'd do some proper investigation into the whole weight thing. If all cars are found to be totally legal then it enhances the sport and removes any shadow if not then they should be BANNED. I dont think that bernie really wants to know as long as the r__ car wins.

Is there anywhere where post race weights are posted?

[Gt_R]

It's not surprising that any Ferrari innovation is frowned upon and automatically assumed as cheating..don't the critics get tired...?

[bosch!]

Originally posted by Gt_R
It's not surprising that any Ferrari innovation is frowned upon and automatically assumed as cheating..don't the critics get tired...?

Actually is more Ross Brawn and Jean Todt, the dodgiest characters since Bernie and Charlie and look what happened to them

[1200Datto27]

Shell first used a high density/hi octane fuel back in the MacLaren/Honda turbo days, and this allowed them to run a fuel restricted race with more power than the rules preferred, as they could lean off the fuel.

With the new fuel, as long as they are within the rules, and I believe that they would be, then what is wrong with it. Like everything else, Shell should not be ridiculed for innovation, all of the other fuel companied should be asked why have they not thought of doing the same.

[Gt_R]

Oh right..i forgot..Shell would sacrifice their reputation and business just because Brawn wants them to.

Brawn dodgiest? well...i guess they must be crafty otherwise how could they outwit the opponents with pit-strategies again and again and again...

I guess people would rather add dirt than admit/praise Ferrari and their technical partners for a job well done.