Ferrari and light weight fuel?

[bosch!]

YAWWWWWWWNNNN yep they are doing a great job of squeezing the excitment out of Formula 1. I'll let y'all get back to your TFG hero worship. Sorry for pointing out that the playing field slopes a bit, I was forgetting that the only thing that matters is that the reds win. Its uncharitable to suggest that they RB may be "expoiting" the rules (AKA cheating) like he did in his bennaton days.

I guess we've all forgotten about bennaton havent we. Orwell would be so proud.

[Gt_R]

bosch...i really don't see what's your intention now..

Is it a serious concern you have regarding MS/Ferrari's weight you are having, or is it a simple case of trying to find another thing to taint MS/Ferrari out of boredom.

From what you are saying in your final post, i think it's the latter. And if so, what you are in search of is not a discussion.

Benetton...ah...the guy who took leading role at Benetton is Flavio...and the guy who makes MS's alleged "illegal" traction is working at Renault... so why did you fail to suggest Renault's cheating ? Simply amusing that people are only cheaters when working with MS....

But back to your point. Firstly, this loophole is too big for FIA and teams to overlook. Secondly, running light in the mid race, even if possible, could have been done by EVERYBODY (irregardless of the weight per cc of fuel). For you to beat around the bush and suggest only Ferrari ran light illegally (yeah..you may say its not...but it doesn't take a genius to figure out what you imply) doesn't make much logical sense.

And this doesn't involve *name-calling* hero worship. It's nothing to do with it..Shell did a good job but gets accused simply because people don't like Ferrari/Brawn/MS. Which is childish.

Prior to the last post, i would have thought you are having a serious discussion...but now reading your last..i honestly doubt so.

[avsfan733]

6.5.4 Refuelling the car on the grid may only be carried out by using an unpressurised container which is no
more than 2 metres above the ground.
6.5.5 No fuel on board the car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below ambient temperature.
6.5.6 The use of any device on board the car to decrease the temperature of the fuel is forbidden.
6.5.1 All refuelling during the race must be carried out at a rate no greater than 12.1 litres per second and by
using equipment which has been supplied by the FIA designated manufacturer,

Basically these say:
you can't cool fuel once its in the car nothign about before hand. It also defines the rate in terms of volume at which fuel is deliverd. Therefore THEORETICALLY you could cool the fuel to make it more dense and then deliver it to the car at a greater mass flow rate while maintaining the regulated volumetric flow. Interestingly they also have a still defined procedure for on the grid refueling.


However, the lightweigth fuel is BS because the density is defined in the regs also

19.3 Properties:
The only fuel permitted is petrol having the following characteristics:
Density at 15°C (units = kg/m³)
min 720.0
max 775.0
test procedure ASTM D 4052

However shell could have come up with a more efficient fuel with more available power per mass unit although with the tightness of the chemical formulation requirements that seems relatively improbable

[z2252314]

Who cares what Ferrari are using I'd want to find out what's going inside those Renault's! Every pit stop is always a second or two quicker than everyone else's.
(No, I dont think the third man they've got on the hose makes the difference).

[bosch!]

Just got bored arguing with you Gt you have an opinion and more time on your hands than I do.

No logical arguement or history is ever going to shake you belife so........... whatever. I dont argue with religious zealots for the same reason.

This thread is over for me.

[golem]

Personally, I'm of the opinion they should actually specificy PUMP fuel. As in, the FIA runs out to any given depot and fills up a truck of optimax/Gold etc and this has to last 4 races or so. That'll make them improve the stuff they sell. >

[Adam43]

avsfan733, thanks for the rules clarification. Interesting about the density.

[avsfan733]

your welcome...Is it sad that I actually knew there was a density figure in there from having read the entire rulebook before for fun

anyways...I tend to not agree with golem. I think that the system they have now seems to be working, if they want to go to a spec fuel they should still do it in a way that encourages innovation because in reality a lot of thigns have come out of F1 in some form or another, and the budgets for F1 research really in turn become budgets for road car research its just the adaptation that takes time

[gttouring]

could renault be cooling the fuel prior to fill? hence adding a denser mixture of said fuel?
ferrari? they have a very close relationship with shell, perhaps they have a lighter set of lubricants, or do those have densities as well?

[avsfan733]

no because any fuel in the car must be no cooler than 10degC colder than ambient which means fuel in the refueling rig can't be more than 10degC cooler otherwise it inherently breaks the rule at every refueling.

and anyways thin kabout cooling a glass of water at room temp 10 degrees do you really see any difference in volume?

[Adam43]

Water has very different cooling properties due to hydrogen bonding in it. Below 4 deg C it actually expands!
However the 10deg hardly makes a difference to fuel, you are right. I just felt like coming bnack into this discussion!

I think the current rules are quite good when considering the basic specification criteria. Basically the rules are road car spec. and most of the rule are just building in sensible tolerancies. Of course the fuel companies may push these tolerances to get a little advantage. However this is probably cheaper than the FIA specifying that they'll go to a petrol station and getting some fuel (or some workable way of making it 'from the pump'). Pump fuel does change for a brand depending on country (or even region in country). Both the economic situation and local laws make quite a difference to fuel spec! F1 would probably need certain fuel stations to be specified. Then the fuel companies might invest a lot into having premier stations. That would be expensive!

[fog_shadow]

Originally posted by bosch!
YAWWWWWWWNNNN yep they are doing a great job of squeezing the excitment out of Formula 1.

aren't we feeling grouchy

however bosch!, i think i need to inform you that you are wrong. it's not Ferrari that are squeezing the excitement out of F1. no dear fellow, that blame if indeed the excitement is squeezed out as you so eloquently stated, lies with the other teams who simply have failed to compete with Ferrari.

the fact that BARf1 are driving circles around McLaren and Williams should have given you some idea. wake up from your obvious stupor and smell the coffee my friend