Kamikaze - Page 4

**Adam43** · 31 May 2004, 22:02 (Ref:989677)

Quote:

Originally posted by Tweed
right, back to this engine thing........

doesn't anyone remember that Button had a few problems with his BMW engines failing more than Ralf's in 2000 and Patrick Head said it was because Jenson's style was to slow down using the gears aswell as the brakes, thereby stressing the engine more, so all this rubbish about Sato contributing to his own engine problems is totally redundant!

Good effort in getting back to the topic in hand.

An interesting point, although not one that makes things redundant. It does show that it can make a difference. JB could have changed his style since then, TS might be even worse, or it might show that TS is unlucky. With out lots of research we just don't know.

Sato san · 1 Jun 2004, 05:06 (Ref:989855)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Its not a massive problem unless we keep going on about it.

i disagree ...Taku didnt do a kamikazee on Rubens....kamikazee has no reference in racing ...Sato made a genuine over taking manouver on the Brazilian that didnt pay off....

do we now refer to some of the German Mchael SCHUMACHER's storming drives in F1 where he fades in to the distance unchallenged by anyone being like a Doodlebug or a Nazi fighter pilot ?...of course not ...so why does Sato (this japanese guy ) get such little respect from people ?

thats seriously not a jibe directed against Peter , far from it( before anyone gets the wrong end of the stick about it ), but it is a general point....

Taku is brave ...he shows spirit and passion ...he isnt dull...but he makes some mistakes and is still growing as a F1 driver....Id say he is exactly what F1 needs to become exciting again ...or does everyone want to see drivers overtaking in the pits or just plain old driving for points ?

**Peter Mallett** · 1 Jun 2004, 05:45 (Ref:989870)

From the point of view of a guniune manaeuvre it reminded me a little of Hill v Schumacher at Prirorey 1995. The distance was too great for the pass to come off. But on that occasion both drivers lost out.

I recall the fervour that Hill fans displayed in his defence. And the opposite from MS fans.

So I still think he was right to try but it was always going to be high risk when he was already in a podium position with a clearly faster car. So it was probably impatience and therefore not what we would like to see from a potential WDC.

frederick · 1 Jun 2004, 05:50 (Ref:989874)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san

Taku is brave ...he shows spirit and passion ...he isnt dull...but he makes some mistakes and is still growing as a F1 driver....Id say he is exactly what F1 needs to become exciting again ...or does everyone want to see drivers overtaking in the pits or just plain old driving for points ?

Exactly! Sato-San

While he's on the track he is great to watch
exciting and inspirational

but maybe, just possibly and perhaps,

his style is causing the unwanted engine detonations

just a thought.

"Cry Banzai!......and let slip the Kamikaze Samurai!"

oooohhh! sorry, my non-PC keyboard made me do it

(note to stupid ignorant self:
return to "value-neutral" state immediately)

BootsOntheSide · 1 Jun 2004, 08:51 (Ref:989994)

I wasn't happy about the use of the word 'Kamikaze'. It not only borders on racism, but it shows either minimal respect for Takuma as a racing driver, or a non-existant understanding of the meaning of the concept.

Good comparison there Peter - which shows that experienced drivers can make similar mistakes when the pressure is on. It's a shame that he didn't keep it together, but the results will come.

**Adam43** · 1 Jun 2004, 09:06 (Ref:990008)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san
do we now refer to some of the German Mchael SCHUMACHER's storming drives in F1 where he fades in to the distance unchallenged by anyone being like a Doodlebug or a Nazi fighter pilot ?

er, no. Firstly a doodlebug is an unmanned drone, so is totally inappropriate.

However Michael is often referred to as the Red Baron. Which is very apt - A German flying ace that flew a red plane! So yes it does have a precedent.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san
...of course not ...so why does Sato (this japanese guy ) get such little respect from people ?

Did you read Armco Benders definition of Kamikaze?

Quote:

Originally bu Armco Bender
Kamikaze (from Kami - "god" and kaze - "wind") means 'divine wind' in Japanese. It refers to the typhoon which saved Japan from a Mongol invasion fleet in 1281.

Sounds blummin' apt to me

Sato, a top driver, I am really enjoying him being in F1. When he polishes those rough edges, he may start pulling of those divine wind manoeuvres.

hamsmith · 1 Jun 2004, 09:22 (Ref:990023)

kamikaze
/kammikaazi/

• noun (in the Second World War) a Japanese aircraft loaded with explosives and making a deliberate suicidal crash on an enemy target.

• adjective reckless or potentially self-destructive.

This is from the oxford dictionary so as the sato incident was accident I agree that Kamikaze is an inappropiate word.

**Peter Mallett** · 1 Jun 2004, 09:34 (Ref:990035)

Ooh all this and an English lesson too.

To repeat. The use of the term is based on the commentary and that's why I posted it. Next it is used quite extensively in english to describe "suicidal" actions. Just like the term "falling on his sword" reflects the ceremony of "hara kiri" (sp). So if it disturbs some people emotionally I apologise, but it is not, repeat not, intended to be a slight on Sato or his race (which I believe is human).

1200Datto27 · 1 Jun 2004, 09:35 (Ref:990036)

Snoopy used to fly against the Red Baron, it does not quite have the same social stigma behind as some other words being used.

hamsmith · 1 Jun 2004, 09:53 (Ref:990056)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Ooh all this and an English lesson too.

To repeat. The use of the term is based on the commentary and that's why I posted it. Next it is used quite extensively in english to describe "suicidal" actions. Just like the term "falling on his sword" reflects the ceremony of "hara kiri" (sp). So if it disturbs some people emotionally I apologise, but it is not, repeat not, intended to be a slight on Sato or his race (which I believe is human).

Peter I was not attacking you or your use of the word but defending Sato San's reasoning for not using the word.
I just think everyone should get back to what the thread was intended to discuss with an agreement not to use the word kamikaze.

**Adam43** · 1 Jun 2004, 09:53 (Ref:990057)

In the light of what Peter (and before that) says I just think everything is a little over the top. Sato went for a lunge, that (with hindsight) was not on. It was almost suicidal (albeit with no risk of life. It still seems apt to Sato's move! The origins of the word are clearly WW2, but it is used much more generally nowadays.

It is a bit like the expression 'do or die'. However I guess it was the Japanese part that makes kamikaze the one to use. However in the context it is used I see no offense, it has been around for a long time that word and it has mellowed in its meaning.

If we analyse every word then there will be something offense in it. That is not to say that the word couldn't be used in an offensive way. In which case we would close the thread I guess.

hamsmith · 1 Jun 2004, 09:59 (Ref:990059)

I'm sorry if i don't agree with your justifacation of it's use here Adam but if some people are taking offence to it with their own justifacation then people should respect that what ever there own oppinion. The intention of the thread can continue without the use of the word so it should be left out.

**Peter Mallett** · 1 Jun 2004, 10:03 (Ref:990063)

Frankly I think this discussion has exhausted itself.

Sorry if anybody thinks they's more to say but I'd ask Adam if he would be kind enough to close this thread.

Cheers

**Adam43** · 1 Jun 2004, 10:18 (Ref:990076)

Closed. I've taken note. Thread closed.

Just a few points as to why it is so difficult.

If something causes offence it isn't allowed here at ten-tenths. Period. However what if there was no intention of offence and others use certain words in a 'normal' way? FWIW, you may want to check this out.

The actual details of what I am about to say is immaterial, it is just a real example: A while ago we had a thread where someone asking about Jewish F1 drivers. There was a lot of "it doesn't matter what people's religion is". Which is true. However these were accompanied with "close this thread, its disgraceful". Which isn't true. I see nothing wrong in asking such a question, for all I know the poster was Jewish, or maybe not. It is just my example of how we can go OTT on this and in the end there was an issue raised about religion and it was a problem, but it wasn't the poster asking the original question.

On an internet forum it is difficult to judge people's motives by the written word. However the offence does not come from just the words, but also the motive's behind the words.

A difficult decision and one we try and get right. If offence is caused when we don't quite get it right then I apologise.

Thread Closed.

Adam