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Old 16 Aug 2004, 21:54 (Ref:1068652)   #26
driftwood
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
mcgaughy GT car was jimmy jacks car
allegedly sold to scandanavian when he was finished with it
BP works cars
3 were used 2 for BH 1 for Delboy
the roman hillclimb cars are not tolemans they are toleman tub skins and associated parts left over from the car buld programme ( commonly known as spare parts) from BS fabrication shop that Ray used to start the roman car buld with
u could say a roman is a toleman like you could call a toleman a ralt RT2 !
RR did have some parts to actually build 2-4 "tolemans" Ames had 1 ran in BP colours in mid 90`s
1 or 2 cars are in usa running in BP colours
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Old 17 Aug 2004, 05:11 (Ref:1068868)   #27
David McKinney
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This is not my field of greatest expertise, but my notes on the hillclimbing Tolemans are as follows:

1981
Godfrey Crompton T280 No.5
Crompton T280 (No.10) driven by Chris Cramer

1982
Godfrey Crompton and Peter Kaye T280 No.5
Chris Cramer T280 No.10

1983
Jimmy Jack T280 No.10

1984
Ray Rowan T280 No.5

1985
Ray Rowan T280 No.5

1986
nothing known

1987
Richard Ames T280 No.5

1988
Terry Clifford T280 No.5

1989
Terry Clifford T280 No.5
Nigel Bigwood TG290

1990
Terry Clifford T280 No.5
Nigel Bigwood TG290
Richard Ames TF290

1991
Terry Clifford T280 No.5
Richard Ames TF290 and/or T280

1992
Terry Clifford T280 No.5
Richard Ames T280

1993
Richard Ames T280
Richard Fry and Richard Brown T280 No.5

Note: T280 No.5 may have become the first Roman in 1985
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Old 17 Aug 2004, 08:44 (Ref:1068995)   #28
driftwood
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
"Note: T280 No.5 may have become the first Roman in 1985" NO this did not become Roman its a toleman and still is
see my comments above -a roman is not a toleman
the 290 Ames car was sold to Boss racer then traded out later and broken up
motor ft200 sold off the remains where for sale a years ago
these cars had no plates:confused:
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Old 17 Aug 2004, 09:07 (Ref:1069018)   #29
David McKinney
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Calm down Drifters!
I know the later Romans weren't Tolemans, but as this car was retubbed in 1985 I wondered if it might also have been renamed.
Happy to accept my suggestion was wrong
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Old 17 Aug 2004, 10:16 (Ref:1069077)   #30
driftwood
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
i know yr not a scouser with the "calm down calm down" comment next thing u will be giving me the "fair dinkums"
yr probably right 05 being retubbed as the man had the parts to do it
a roman was quite different when u got into the nitty gritty of the parts
it was easy to say it was a toleman tub but there where a few differences to the degree u could not revert a roman to 280 chassis etc
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Old 17 Aug 2004, 10:44 (Ref:1069111)   #31
Jeremy Jackson
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Without wanting to get my head bitten off (!), was the BOSS racer who had the Ames car Colin Stone, or was his Toleman one of the original TG280s?
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Old 17 Aug 2004, 11:11 (Ref:1069146)   #32
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Jeremy, thanks for filling in my question marks.

I remember talking to Terry Clifford at Silverstone once (mid 90's) and he was talking about taking his TG280 BOSS racing but I don't know if he ever did. Anyone know? Colin Stone rings a bell, but don't know if it was Ames' car.

J
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Old 17 Aug 2004, 12:43 (Ref:1069249)   #33
driftwood
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yes colin stone had ames old "toleman" and JJ if u read what i had stated earlier answered the question befroe u asked it

no terry never did race in boss in any car
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Old 17 Aug 2004, 13:16 (Ref:1069278)   #34
Jeremy Jackson
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Well I did read what you stated but since you weren't specific... If it had answered the question I wouldn't have had to clarify it.

Bye.

Last edited by Jeremy Jackson; 17 Aug 2004 at 13:19.
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Old 17 Aug 2004, 13:45 (Ref:1069306)   #35
driftwood
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
"RR did have some parts to actually build 2-4 "tolemans" Ames had 1 ran in BP colours in mid 90`s"
from earlier posting
dont forget hillclimbers share cars so not all cars are sold on some perhaps satyed in "ownership" buy other drove them
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Old 18 Aug 2004, 06:19 (Ref:1070118)   #36
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Out of coincidence, I received my copy of Speedscene last night and in it was a picture of Ray Rowan driving the ex-David Render Toleman. Is this a genuine TG280? It was entered as one at a couple of meetings this year. If it is, I wonder which chassis it is?! This car has been competing in hillclimbs and sprints for a long time.

Last edited by james_williams; 18 Aug 2004 at 06:19.
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Old 18 Aug 2004, 09:09 (Ref:1070265)   #37
driftwood
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
car still owned by DR used by ray fpr donkey`s years
not sure if it is true factory car or 1 of his "tolemans" made from the spares he bought- will ask him later
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Old 17 Dec 2004, 19:20 (Ref:1182066)   #38
Steve Wilkinson
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British Sprint Championship

Just picked up this ancient thread. I have noted the chassis numbers/owners and will set in train the update of the British Sprint Championship Archive.

You can find the archive on www.britishsprint.com and before you ask I am not going to do one for the Hillclimb Championship!
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Old 21 Jan 2005, 12:28 (Ref:1206319)   #39
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Roman connection

Some details concerning Hillclimb and Sprint Tolemans.

1986 Ray Rowan shunted his Toleman at Doune. The TUB was a write off.

Ray Rowan then buys from Lola the following:
a) A Spare TG280 production tub (T850)
b) A half finished TG280 tub
c) Various suspension components
d) A selection of panels held in store for repairing tubs.

Ray Rowan then set about rebuilding his TG280 around the spare tub.

Rowan then builds up the hal finished TG280 for David Render which becomes TG87/1.

Rowan then uses the spare suspension and chassis panels to construct the Roman IVH.
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Old 22 Jan 2005, 09:29 (Ref:1206963)   #40
driftwood
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toleman tg280 etc

Ray built 2 "romans" and 3 or 4 "tolemans" from the bits he had and SPA made some more tub skins when he needed them for cars or repairs
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Old 22 Jan 2005, 19:02 (Ref:1207304)   #41
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Tolemans

They are all Ralt RT 2's anyway.

AB
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Old 22 Jan 2005, 22:38 (Ref:1207430)   #42
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blox are they! uprights are different tub is different suspension has large rockers on rear with dampers on top of gearbox
from 20 feet it may look ralt is but they are totaly different cars desgned and built by 2 different sets of people
after the RT2 hart car of 79 ralt went with honda and built cars for them to race for the next 4 seasons
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Old 22 Jan 2005, 23:20 (Ref:1207458)   #43
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Rt2/tg280/t850

Come on Kevan not so.

Rory Byrne worked alongside Ron in designing the RT2 of which only 4 were built in 1979 exclusively for Toleman. One more was built in 1980 for Gary Grove who ran it with an enveloping body in Can Am.

The car was then developed further by Toleman in 1980 and built by them and then as customer cars by Lola in 1981 as T850s. Richard Barnes then bought all that was left at Lola and the two Romans were born. One Hart 2.8 powered and the other CV powered. The 2.8 car eventually becoming CV powered through the late Mark Colton and then John Fellows who I think still has it. The other one went to Tony Marsh from RR and to then I do not know where.

Ralt did not do F2 in 1980 as you suggested because of the agreement with Toleman but resumed in 1981 with the RH6 Honda. Mike Thackwell won at Silverstone & Geoff Lees was Champion, the first for Ralt, with wins at Pau, Spa & Donington.

AB
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Old 23 Jan 2005, 11:00 (Ref:1207751)   #44
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Let me get this clear!

So the Tolemans were Ralts because they were a development of the Ralt RT2?

That's like saying all Williams Grand Prix cars are really March cars because Frank Williams ran a 761 in 1976 and produced the FW06 in 1977 so it must have been a development of the March!

Surely the Tolemans were more Lola than Ralt?
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Old 23 Jan 2005, 11:13 (Ref:1207762)   #45
driftwood
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
a ralt is a ralt
a toleman is a toleman- 2 seperate cars- go fit a ralt part to a toleman then tell me if it fits!
The tubs follow ralts concept the body follows rt2/3 4 lines
the wheels are ralt drive pegs 1 end march the other end al uprights are different castings the wishbones are different
Lola built the toleman cars under a licence agreement for Toleman cos they went into F1 and could not carry out the work

next you will be telling us the Longhorn Indy car is a williams FW07 (but thats another thread for someone) or Maurer 81-83 cars are really chevron!
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Old 23 Jan 2005, 14:08 (Ref:1207876)   #46
Arty B
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You are being too pedantic. My point is that the RT2 was a clean sheet of paper car designed by Ron together with input from Rory Byrne exclusively for the use of Toleman. When they were run in 79 Toleman developed them themselves. The car we know as a Toleman was not a clean sheet but an evolution of the RT2. Yes it is different but it was not a completely fresh design.

Steve Wilkinson grow up. That is not like saying a March 761 is a Williams I know the differnece. Lola came after Toleman not before so how can it be more Lola?

It is exactly the same point as in another thread on Pilbeams. Early Pilbeams and Ansons were all evolutions of the BT38 not something fresh out of Mike Pilbeam's or Gary Anderson's/Bob Simpson's minds. That is the only point I make about the Toleman/RT2.

Where shall we go next? Meaning of life or what is a Bowman realy?

AB.
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Old 23 Jan 2005, 14:11 (Ref:1207881)   #47
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What is a Bowman

Always thought of them as Archers!
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Old 23 Jan 2005, 14:15 (Ref:1207883)   #48
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Archers

Off to listen to the compendium edition.

How is that fine Reynard of yours Steve?

AB.
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Old 23 Jan 2005, 14:16 (Ref:1207885)   #49
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Reynard For Sale!

Up for sale! Interested?
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Old 23 Jan 2005, 14:22 (Ref:1207891)   #50
Arty B
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Now let me see. If my theory af evolution is correct. Your car was last owned by Martin Groves and before that Paul Stoddart so it must either be a European Minardi F1 or an NME engined Gould. Of course I am interested!

AB.
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