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Old 2 Oct 2021, 20:31 (Ref:4076720)   #2776
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
Sold out by virtue of less seating though?

Its a fair point to raise about locals not attending.

For sure some of that has to be that locals dont care about motorsports and certainly not at F1 prices, but also how well are events promoted to this potential local audience?

Follow up question...do they sell alcohol at every event...at Abu Dhabi for example?

Drinking is a pretty popular tradition and if you want a 100k spectators then you need booze right? I suppose thats an incredibly western opinion though.
No.Around 70,000 seats I think.Certainly more grandstand seats than Montreal or Monaco.
Yes they sell alcohol at the event.
The local audience are well aware this event is run for a “western” crowd and it may not align with their religious beliefs.
I don’t understand people saying F1 should only be held in places where there is a local motor racing tradition or where it can encourage other forms of motor sport.It is a big event and stands on its own.A lot of F1 fans I know have zero interest in any other form of motor sport anyway.That being said a lot of countries where there is no real local motor sport-Turkey,South Korea,India-have struggled to find an audience.
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Old 3 Oct 2021, 13:05 (Ref:4076823)   #2777
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No.Around 70,000 seats I think.Certainly more grandstand seats than Montreal or Monaco.
Yes they sell alcohol at the event.
The local audience are well aware this event is run for a “western” crowd and it may not align with their religious beliefs.
I don’t understand people saying F1 should only be held in places where there is a local motor racing tradition or where it can encourage other forms of motor sport.It is a big event and stands on its own.A lot of F1 fans I know have zero interest in any other form of motor sport anyway.That being said a lot of countries where there is no real local motor sport-Turkey,South Korea,India-have struggled to find an audience.

Afaic they can hold F1 races where ever they like. However, without having any motorsports heritage to begin with, or encouraging the development of local motor racing, it doesn't stand on its own as we have seen with Turkey, South Korea and India.
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Old 3 Oct 2021, 14:48 (Ref:4076836)   #2778
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Afaic they can hold F1 races where ever they like. However, without having any motorsports heritage to begin with, or encouraging the development of local motor racing, it doesn't stand on its own as we have seen with Turkey, South Korea and India.

One comment about Korea is that, for reasons that I am not aware of, they chose to create the circuit hundreds of miles from the capital Seoul where the largest population live. It was sited in an industrial area (ship-building I seem to remember) of the country, which from memory, didn't even have a local airport and was not really a good place to have it being no-where near any population centres.

Again, from memory it was about an eight to ten hour drive from the capital which was off-putting to locals as well as international tourist.

An exception, almost, to this is Japan where the almost rabid motor racing fans will travel countless hours to attend a grand prix, in the case of Suzuka. Although to be fair to Japan, there are large conurbations within an hour or so, although thousands do drive down from Tokyo, and there is an international airport fairly nearby as well as frequent bullet trains stations within bus driving distance.
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Old 3 Oct 2021, 15:17 (Ref:4076837)   #2779
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One comment about Korea is that, for reasons that I am not aware of, they chose to create the circuit hundreds of miles from the capital Seoul where the largest population live. It was sited in an industrial area (ship-building I seem to remember) of the country, which from memory, didn't even have a local airport and was not really a good place to have it being no-where near any population centres.

Again, from memory it was about an eight to ten hour drive from the capital which was off-putting to locals as well as international tourist.

An exception, almost, to this is Japan where the almost rabid motor racing fans will travel countless hours to attend a grand prix, in the case of Suzuka. Although to be fair to Japan, there are large conurbations within an hour or so, although thousands do drive down from Tokyo, and there is an international airport fairly nearby as well as frequent bullet trains stations within bus driving distance.

Is Japan an exception? Japan has a well established motorsports heritage, through involvement in F1, IndyCar, MotoGP, WEC and has it's own motorsports series.
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Old 3 Oct 2021, 15:46 (Ref:4076839)   #2780
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One comment about Korea is that, for reasons that I am not aware of, they chose to create the circuit hundreds of miles from the capital Seoul where the largest population live. It was sited in an industrial area (ship-building I seem to remember) of the country, which from memory, didn't even have a local airport and was not really a good place to have it being no-where near any population centres.

Again, from memory it was about an eight to ten hour drive from the capital which was off-putting to locals as well as international tourist.
I believe you were correct, the intention was create a resort with circuit and marina being integral to it. The final corners and pit entrance weren’t great because they were shaped around what would be a man-made bay.
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 08:38 (Ref:4076904)   #2781
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Yes, these ones have managed to build up a great fanbase. It's others where the interest isn't there that is the problem
I think you answered your own question. managed to build up a great fanbase

Sometimes you have to wait and let things grow. To expect to drop it in fully grown and it be instantly huge might not work in every market. But over time....
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 13:07 (Ref:4076923)   #2782
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According to Sky Sports, Stefano Domenicali has said the 2022 calendar is set to be 23 races and finish in mid-November.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...CVKX35UYu1IOTY
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 13:23 (Ref:4076928)   #2783
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I question whether we really need another race in the Middle East.
To draw together a number of different threads - maybe the reason we need another race in the Middle East is so that we can see Porsche back in F1?

Let me explain - in a few posts you have advocated for more teams in F1:
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Shows once again the folly of only having 10 teams in F1
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I agree. 10 teams isn’t enough. I just hope Porsche put in more of an effort
and on a regular basis you have stated that you feel motorsport should attract more manufacturers:
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at the end of the day the decision to continue or not comes from those at the top, the actual motor manufacturer.
You have also mentioned on a few occasions how you feel there aren't enough opportunities for younger drivers to get into the sport.

There are an increasing amount of column inches being devoted to a VAG entry to F1 - with the latest being a BBC article that suggests the new engine regulations are favourable to VAG. Let's not forget, they were involved in the technical discussions for a reason.

With QIA having a 10-year deal to host a GP, their previous attempts to take a controlling stake in the sport (they were a rival to Liberty Media) and already proven as a venue since 2004 for MotoGP, then surely they have proven that there is interest in the country?

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It's others where the interest isn't there that is the problem
So maybe - we really do need another race in the middle east to fulfil the other hopes you have for the sport? The stake that QIA has in VAG may be the final piece of the jigsaw to unlock an entry from Porsche.....
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 13:41 (Ref:4076931)   #2784
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We do not need another GP in the Middle East. Let Manufacturers come and go. F1 needs to make if affordable for teams to come in

For sure having manufacturers help, but it's not the be all and end all. So let's keep encouraging teams to join while we can. Frankly I do wonder if VAG should have entered earlier. Just make engine regulations affordable so anyone can come in and not just manufacturers, but specialist engine builders. Can't rely on engine manufacturers who could easily leave tomorrow.

Frankly I think a ten year deal for Qatar is absurd, why should they take a controlling interest in F1? And just because it's worked in MotoGp doesn't mean it will work in F1. I will see what happens this year, but I don't think it's one that is really crucial to the future of our sport

It's ridiculous to suggest that we need Middle Eastern races to attract more manufacturers. And I said I wanted more teams, not more manufacturers. Just let the manufacturers come in when they want, because there's no guarantee they are going to be there in the long run
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 13:44 (Ref:4076934)   #2785
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Fan: I want more teams! I want more circuits!
F1: just a minute, let us negotiate with this circuit we've never been to before.
Fan: NOT THAT ONE.
F1: OK, hold your horses, we're going to talk to some people who might be interested in joining and running a team.
Fan: NOT THEM
F1: What about those other guys?
Fan: NOT THEM EITHER.

It's no wonder Liberty want to reduce their stake in the business.
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 13:55 (Ref:4076936)   #2786
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Fan: I want more teams! I want more circuits!
F1: just a minute, let us negotiate with this circuit we've never been to before.
Fan: NOT THAT ONE.
F1: OK, hold your horses, we're going to talk to some people who might be interested in joining and running a team.
Fan: NOT THEM
F1: What about those other guys?
Fan: NOT THEM EITHER.

It's no wonder Liberty want to reduce their stake in the business.
Haha. So spot on.

Richard
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 15:10 (Ref:4076940)   #2787
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I just think it would be so much easier and better if F1 kept things simple. Having too many races overcomplicates things and if anything doesn’t easier on the cost and the many team members who need their own life
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 20:18 (Ref:4076975)   #2788
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i think we take for granted how much the sport and the teams rely on ME investment and money. whether its investment or ownership stakes in teams, paying high hosting fees (possibly allowing traditional venues to pay less), track side advertising, behind the scenes and/or in boardrooms influence with any number of other brands, manus, and suppliers associated with F1 etc

if more teams, either manu or privateer, are to come then surely they will need both money and permission from their shareholders to do so thus i suspect ME investors will feature prominently.

just my opinion though of course but if more races in the ME expands its profile there, makes it easier for these sovereign wealth funds to justify their contributions, then i am all in for more ME races.

anyways, in a couple of months we will see what they build in Saudi and then next year we can compare it to the parking lot race track they are planning for in Miami.
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 21:02 (Ref:4076978)   #2789
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It has to be borne in mind that Middle East interests already have substantial shareholding in at least one F1 team, McLaren, holding over 70% of the group. And of course, ME groups are said to be interested in buying FOM from Liberty. And interestingly enough, the Latifi company has a 7% holding, as well.

We need to remember that they, as well as the Chinese and the Russians have all the money nowadays.
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 21:16 (Ref:4076980)   #2790
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It has to be borne in mind that Middle East interests already have substantial shareholding in at least one F1 team, McLaren, holding over 70% of the group. And of course, ME groups are said to be interested in buying FOM from Liberty. And interestingly enough, the Latifi company has a 7% holding, as well.

We need to remember that they, as well as the Chinese and the Russians have all the money nowadays.
right!

the only tradition in motorsports that matters is that they go where the money is.

or it these could be that these regions still consume the most tobacco?
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 21:20 (Ref:4076982)   #2791
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From Autosport:

One of Domenicali’s key arguments for expanding in the Middle East is that the via the likes of Aramco the region is at the forefront of developing alternative fuels, a direction F1 is taking.

“We always said, this region represents a milestone for the strategic development of F1,” he said last week.

“We see a lot of potential of growth, we see that we can enhance what is F1, it's technology research, it's sporting activation. It's something that is also related to the fact that we do believe that we have a responsibility versus the future of our sustainable project.

“And I think with the powers that we can have here, we can really enhance that, making sure that our future is leading to a platform that is from one side, very, very popular, and very sustainable.”
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Old 6 Oct 2021, 00:39 (Ref:4077123)   #2792
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And also remember they can charge more to the places that need or desire a race for prestige and be able to keep other tracks around on the calendar. Until they start doubling up and making it a ME only series maybe dial back the anger level to a 3. If they can pay great. If the race track is dull as a carpark but the racing is good, great. If the track is a classic but the racing sucks, why are we there again? Oh yeah, cause Monaco brings in the people who want to be associated with the glamour and PAY FOR IT.

That said, cramming a race in places where it doesn't need to be is a fool's errand. See India and Korea sadly, both could have been good but other factors made it a tough sell and the tracks, well..... It feels like Miami will be Monaco in the racing is 1000% secondary to the glad-handing and Paddock Club tickets sold. Similar to the happenings at COTA, it appears a great many people 2 years ago came in the track ground during the race and were they for the other events not the racing. Is that a good or bad thing? Depends on the ticket pricing and the track. I've heard some TERRIBLE stories about COTA and some who claim the exact opposite, I'm inclined to believe the terrible as I know them personally but I hope the track has learned.

Personally wish my dad still ran Aramco Aviation, think I could get a few of those fancy tickets and make all the rich folks uncomfortable with me actually watching the racing. He went to a few in Bahrain and said many of his pilots, Saudi and expat, were big F1 and sportscar fans but others loved the big engine street racing and weren't into the track stuff. But plenty of expats to support multiple races in the region it seems, and tons of money
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Old 6 Oct 2021, 15:12 (Ref:4077212)   #2793
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Definitely the traditional GPs need to not try and outprice themselves. The last thing we need is for F1 to lose them, so hopefully common sense will prevail. Some of the newer events don’t do much for F1. It would be a shame to lose the classical events, but I don’t think that would happen

A lot of countries have tried to make their GP work and have failed, due to there not being a contingency plan. We’ll have to wait and see what Miami does. I do worry for Austin whether it can survive against Miami, but then that’s how it goes

Obviously spectators are really important. For me they are crucial to a lot of events. And to be fair their have been new events that have had a decent crowd, although some have failed in that regard
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Old 6 Oct 2021, 16:03 (Ref:4077219)   #2794
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Definitely the traditional GPs need to not try and outprice themselves.
How do you propose they do that? The venues pay for the privilege of hosting an event, with the likes of Baku paying $60million a year. If existing / new venues that don't fit your paradigm of 'classic' are willing to pay more, how does a traditional GP not become outpriced?

Unless you mean that the traditional GPs should be willing to pay more for the privilege of hosting an event then they currently do?
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Old 6 Oct 2021, 18:45 (Ref:4077236)   #2795
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Quite frankly the price is too high for some. Events like Baku, Sochi and Abu Dhabi, do we really need them? It’s clear events like Britain, France, Monaco, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Australia et al are more important for the fans, so quite why they need to prove themselves by paying more IDK, but the right agreement needs to be reached.

Frankly the money was put too high and Bernie takes the responsibility for that, frankly he should have not let the fees get so high. The circuits are in a tough situation: how to make money without ripping off the fans. I hope something is done
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Old 6 Oct 2021, 19:14 (Ref:4077240)   #2796
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Quite frankly the price is too high for some. Events like Baku, Sochi and Abu Dhabi, do we really need them? It’s clear events like Britain, France, Monaco, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Australia et al are more important for the fans, so quite why they need to prove themselves by paying more IDK, but the right agreement needs to be reached.

Frankly the money was put too high and Bernie takes the responsibility for that, frankly he should have not let the fees get so high. The circuits are in a tough situation: how to make money without ripping off the fans. I hope something is done

For many years it was believed that Monaco didn't even pay a sanctioning fee, but in 2017, Prince Albert, in an interview, claimed that they did have to pay but didn't say how much that fee was. All he said is that Mr E had recognised what value the principality brought to F1, and based the fee on that, and it was possibly low. They also enjoy the only GP that they, as promoters, have the TV rights, including the direction of the filming and provide the feed to other broadcasters which brings in income to set against the sanctioning fee.
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Old 6 Oct 2021, 20:04 (Ref:4077248)   #2797
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the extra money Liberty is extracting from these 'prestige' races seems to be allowing more favorable deals to be signed with classic venues.

the trade off works for me. i like the future more then the past i guess.

more so when they build these absolute marvels of modern architecture and then dedicate them to auto racing and car ( well Ferrari) culture like in Abu Dhabi...honestly Yas Marina makes Monaco look like a 1970s Soviet era concrete tenement project by comparison and im guessing that whenever the Saudi's finish this race track city resort thing outside of Riyadh it will make Yas Marina look like a dump...and then how bad and decrepit will Monaco look?
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Old 7 Oct 2021, 07:42 (Ref:4077296)   #2798
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You must be joking. Abu Dhabi is just a see of tarmac. Monaco still looks impressive and up to date. Nothing like an old Soviet tenement.

I have nothing against newer tracks joining, but they have to add something to the calendar or there's no point.
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Old 7 Oct 2021, 08:42 (Ref:4077303)   #2799
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Updated versus old-fashioned F1 backdrops:



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Old 8 Oct 2021, 10:14 (Ref:4077450)   #2800
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Still would go for Monaco, better backdrop if you ask me, whatever the age
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