Nissan Leaf

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

As an HGV driver, nothing is more annoying than having cars cruising at the same speed in between trucks (it's bloody dangerous for a start)- but it will be at 56mph max, not 65..... And white vans are usually in the outside lane, unless also fitted with a speed limiter!

A lot of people cruise at an indicated 70mph, but don't realise their speedo is by design, optimistic, and that they are actually doing 65. No idea how accurate a Model S speedo is, but would guess very, as likely GPS driven. I've never seen one on a dual carriageway going anything except 70mph +, so maybe you're seeing chauffeur driven or airport taxi cars....

First point - not if the truck is Irish or an older vehicle (though rare these days).

Or, more and more often it seems, not if some other reason.

Plus if doing 65 or even 70 set on the cruise control presumably autopilot will just adjust to the speed of the vehicle in front?

Second point - yep. Although most people seem to have cottoned on to that in the 50 limits these days.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by grantp

First point - not if the truck is Irish or an older vehicle (though rare these days).

Or, more and more often it seems, not if some other reason.

Plus if doing 65 or even 70 set on the cruise control presumably autopilot will just adjust to the speed of the vehicle in front?

Second point - yep. Although most people seem to have cottoned on to that in the 50 limits these days.

OT, but the amount of trucks with limiters set higher than allowed is definitely less than a few years ago. Even mine is exactly 90kph. Exactly. Many are less. Of course you can overspeed on a downhill section, with the risk of your tacho marking the infraction on the journey record.....

Yes, intelligent cruise controls (not necessarily linked to an autonomous mode) will vary your speed depending on the traffic in front. That's got nothing to do with the car being an EV or another type.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

OT, but the amount of trucks with limiters set higher than allowed is definitely less than a few years ago. Even mine is exactly 90kph. Exactly. Many are less. Of course you can overspeed on a downhill section, with the risk of your tacho marking the infraction on the journey record.....

Yes, intelligent cruise controls (not necessarily linked to an autonomous mode) will vary your speed depending on the traffic in front. That's got nothing to do with the car being an EV or another type.

True about the Euro Tacho limiters but in England and Wales the DC and motorway limit is officially 60. Not in Scotland though. And then you have coaches and commercials under 7.5 tonnes.

So the idea of sitting in the middle lane (or A middle lane in "smart" section of a motorway) in a large vehicle sandwich letting the intelligent cruise controls or complete autopilot systems (more likely them) take over is still not one I feel comfortable with.

Fortunately I am not in a position to be concerned about such things with my current personal transport!

[GORDON STREETER]

Meanwhile down here in Spain with plenty of sun we have lots of solar farms, and wind turbines up on the mountain ridges, also from this year the Spanish government hopes to boost the number of electric cars on the roads with new grants available in 2017. Anyone who is resident in Spain is eligible.
A budget of over 14 million euros has been set aside for grants for the purchase of electric cars, including plug-in hybrids. The scheme is called Movea 2017 and was approved in June.
Grants are awarded on a first-come, first-served basis until 15 Oct 2017, or earlier if funds are depleted. Grant amounts are based on the km driving range of the vehicle purchased

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Meanwhile down here in Spain with plenty of sun we have lots of solar farms, and wind turbines up on the mountain ridges, also from this year the Spanish government hopes to boost the number of electric cars on the roads with new grants available in 2017. Anyone who is resident in Spain is eligible.
A budget of over 14 million euros has been set aside for grants for the purchase of electric cars, including plug-in hybrids. The scheme is called Movea 2017 and was approved in June.
Grants are awarded on a first-come, first-served basis until 15 Oct 2017, or earlier if funds are depleted. Grant amounts are based on the km driving range of the vehicle purchased

Interesting, Gordon. 4 months of grant availability doesn't seem very long- do you think it is a trial, or is there perhaps some political reason?

[GORDON STREETER]

Can't see it being political as most of the government is corrupt unless someone is actually making money out of it !!! true
This actually started in 2011 when they were giving a subsidy of 25% up until November of that year. now they are giving €5500 for cars with over a 90k range. However I have never noticed an electric car in my area and I have never seen any charging points either !

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Can't see it being political as most of the government is corrupt unless someone is actually making money out of it !!! true
This actually started in 2011 when they were giving a subsidy of 25% up until November of that year. now they are giving €5500 for cars with over a 90k range. However I have never noticed an electric car in my area and I have never seen any charging points either !

25% sounds a lot. Not surprised that didn't continue! Someone said earlier in the thread that you don't tend to see charging points unless you're looking for them, and there is truth in that. Any idea if there are grants for home charger installations? There are a few Apps and websites that show all the charging points here, of which the most comprehensive I've found is ZapMap. Maybe there is something similar in Spain!

Or perhaps EV owners plug straight into a solar or wind farm.....

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Out of curiosity what is the real world (as opposed to brochure) timeframe for charging up something like a Nissan Leaf? Lets say from warning light on to fully charged?

Does it get longer over time or does the range drop with more re-charges?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Out of curiosity what is the real world (as opposed to brochure) timeframe for charging up something like a Nissan Leaf? Lets say from warning light on to fully charged?

Does it get longer over time or does the range drop with more re-charges?

I don't own a leaf, but I had a podcast on today (Talking Tesla), where one of the presenters used to own a Leaf. He said it takes 4-5 hours from almost empty to full. He said almost empty, because it's never really empty. It's like brimming your petrol tank - it's never empty so the cost changes each time. It'll be interesting to hear from the UK owners here how that differs from American owners, as the supplies are quite different.

A huge downside was the dealers and servicing (In the US anyway). You'd drive your Leaf into the garage for a service and they look at you like you just flew a UFO in for an oil change. Apparently Toyota were even worse with the Electric RAV4, with some garages not even knowing it existed.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Out of curiosity what is the real world (as opposed to brochure) timeframe for charging up something like a Nissan Leaf? Lets say from warning light on to fully charged?

Depends on the charger rating. Varies from 13a 3pin household socket up to 50kWh M/Way chargers. At home I have a 32a 3 phase charger rated at 7kWh. This will charge the i3 33kWh battery in a few hours, but obviously a 100kWh Tesla would take a lot longer! The 50kWh DC-CCS charger will charge from around 30% to 100% in 30 minutes. Just time for a coffee and a comfort break.

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Does it get longer over time or does the range drop with more re-charges?

I guess you're thinking of battery degradation. I think when they drop to 80% capacity they are regarded as needing replacement There's a lot of conflicting talk about how many charge cycles it will take before they lose that amount of capacity, and whether it is best to plug your car in every time you put in the garage, or every few days when depleted somewhat. Same arguments as for phones, I guess! As the batteries are usually guaranteed for quite a few years (8 for BMW), and in my case I will not be keeping the car anything like that long, I adopt the first approach. Obviously on a long journey it comes down to charging as many times as necessary to complete the trip, regardless of whether it is good for the batteries or not!

The idea of having quickly replaceable battery packs has been explored by at least one manufacturer. (Renault) Rather than charge at a public point, you would drive into a service bay where the battery pack was swapped from underneath while you waited. So you would always be swapping batteries, and presumably would have some sort of service contract to pay for the scheme. Not sure if the idea is still being developed?

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Someone said earlier in the thread that you don't tend to see charging points unless you're looking for them, and there is truth in that.

The only one I've ever noticed is near Vera a few miles up the road at a petrol station. there is one in Mojacar is at the Parador hotel and that is only accessible to people that are stopping there,and as I've never been in it I wouldn't have seen it anyway !
So only two in our area that covers quite a big area. In the summer season down the "kiss me quick fish n chip" end it's ridiculous to drive and park anyway and is far quicker to walk (if you like 35 + deg heat)

I won't be buying one in the foreseeable future unless the powers that be in Spain make me give up my old 206 Pug that still does over 50mpg

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

!

The idea of having quickly replaceable battery packs has been explored by at least one manufacturer. (Renault) Rather than charge at a public point, you would drive into a service bay where the battery pack was swapped from underneath while you waited. So you would always be swapping batteries, and presumably would have some sort of service contract to pay for the scheme. Not sure if the idea is still being developed?

No doubt there will be "aftermarket" batteries that will come on the market that will undercut the official ones, but like laptop batteries it will be a whole minefield with quality not dictated by price ! However I think the postman might have a job lugging it down the path

On a more serious note I was speaking to a local "entrepreneur" last night who said that he is actively involved at making batteries totally different to what is available now, if it works then he will either make millions or be brought out by the petro/chemical industry

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

The only one I've ever noticed is near Vera a few miles up the road at a petrol station. there is one in Mojacar is at the Parador hotel and that is only accessible to people that are stopping there,and as I've never been in it I wouldn't have seen it anyway !
So only two in our area that covers quite a big area. In the summer season down the "kiss me quick fish n chip" end it's ridiculous to drive and park anyway and is far quicker to walk (if you like 35 + deg heat)

I won't be buying one in the foreseeable future unless the powers that be in Spain make me give up my old 206 Pug that still does over 50mpg

As discussed earlier, there are 8000 petrol stations in the UK and 12,000 chargers. So if there are 8 petrol stations in your town, there is on average 12 chargers. Many are not in obvious places. They aren't as noticeable a large petrol station

Of course there are a lot more petrol nozzles than chargers though!

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

As discussed earlier, there are 8000 petrol stations in the UK and 12,000 chargers. So if there are 8 petrol stations in your town, there is on average 12 chargers. Many are not in obvious places. They aren't as noticeable a large petrol station

Of course there are a lot more petrol nozzles than chargers though!

We only have one petrol station in Mojacar and that doesn't have a charger !
Lets get this into some sort of sensible order, a petrol station can turn over a lot of cars in a short time whereas you have to park a car to charge for a considerable time, the infrastructure will have to be massive and I can't see how it is going to work with millions of cars on the road. Fair enough if you can charge it at home but what about the millions of cars parked both sides of the roads in our overcrowded towns and cities ? you will have to have charging points every 4/5 metres, I can see the aggro that that is going to cause and I am sure that this will not be happening in the foreseeable future.

[Mike Bell]

We are starting to repeat ourselves but nothing new there....

The idea that petrol stations will in future have a row of charging points ain't going to happen IMHO. Despite our government putting it into the recent Queens Speech. Maybe a new build premises with plenty of space could manage it, but certainly not most of the existing ones.

Similarly, a row of terraced houses with only street parking in front (usually cars half on pavement) is not going to be suddenly sprouting charging points.

Driving round locally and in Norwich, I see many on-street parking bays and other convenient locations for chargers. All car parks should have them, and 3 of the biggest multi stories in the city do. So does the rail station, two of the Park & Ride locations, and the airport.

We do need the charger infrastructure to at least keep up with EV market growth, and that is going to need someone's money.....

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

you will have to have charging points every 4/5 metres.

You're completely correct, it'll take a lot of work. But it wasn't like building 20,000 petrol stations around the country was overnight.

Modern lamp posts in the UK (The ones just installed in Dundee for example) have removal panels and have camping hookups on the inside that pull out. Obviously currently designed for local services to plug in street sweepers and what not.

I mean all this evidence is of course anecdotal, but I went for a run this morning and I passed 1 petrol station, and 3 electric chargers.

Once again, as I've said over and over and over, nobody is saying everybody should move to electric cars tomorrow and they fit perfectly for everybody. I'm saying that in the UK, there ARE chargers out there. I'm not saying they turn cars around fast (I even pointed out that there are more nozzles!), I was just giving an easy to visualize perspective of how many chargers there are. It might be different in Spain, but in the UK, when you look around, there is quite a lot.

As Mike says, things like car parks are perfect for these. You build a lovely big new car park, 4 stories high, with 500 spaces in it, for the new shopping centre...why not put chargers in those? Yes it's totally expensive, but if we don't start now, we'll be paying catch up. The street outside your house isn't necessarily the best place for a charger, but that's not an impossibility.

[boggissimo]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Agree. Regarding electric cars and the perceived stereotype owner- I got chatting to another i3 owner this morning. His other cars are Lotus Esprit Turbo and an Elan.

BTW boggi, you should enter the Leaf for the Pom next time instead of the Scooby. Maybe I'll bring the i3....

I thought about it, since if you read the regs carefully it suggested that any pure EV would have zero handicap, and hence get full marks for doing no laps in the high speed test! When I asked for clarification, TOPO said there would be some sort of formula to give an equivalent engine capacity based on the power rating. So the Leaf would come out with something like a 1.2 litre engine and still have to do 10 laps. 36 miles at full throttle might be a struggle, especially with no charging point on site at Silverstone...

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by boggissimo

I thought about it, since if you read the regs carefully it suggested that any pure EV would have zero handicap, and hence get full marks for doing no laps in the high speed test! When I asked for clarification, TOPO said there would be some sort of formula to give an equivalent engine capacity based on the power rating. So the Leaf would come out with something like a 1.2 litre engine and still have to do 10 laps. 36 miles at full throttle might be a struggle, especially with no charging point on site at Silverstone...

My Tesla owning racer friend uses paddock hook ups for charging. He has (I think right name) a 'Juice Booster' that comes with different fly leads and adjusts charge rate to suit supply. Anything from 32a 3 phase downwards. Most paddocks have 16a single which is OK. Think Silverstone 16a 3phase just to be different......

[boggissimo]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

My Tesla owning racer friend uses paddock hook ups for charging. He has (I think right name) a 'Juice Booster' that comes with different fly leads and adjusts charge rate to suit supply. Anything from 32a 3 phase downwards. Most paddocks have 16a single which is OK. Think Silverstone 16a 3phase just to be different......

This? http://www.juice-technology.com/en/p...uice-booster-2
Looks interesting although it doesn't mention the Leaf and has a Type 2 connector (Leaf has Type 1 and Chademo). I have heard of people using the blue 'Commando' 16A outputs that come on campsites, and in race paddocks by the sound of it. If I were to enter something in the Leaf I'd look into that further.

Having been quite successful in the Impreza in this year's Pom though, and enjoying wringing its neck, I'll probably give it another go in that first. Will see if the 2018 regs include a mention of the conversion factor for EVs and then decide if it's worth trying it in the Leaf.

[Mike Bell]

Yes, that's the kiddy. I hadnt looked to see if they did one with Type 1 connector, but now that I have, doesn't appear they do. Not cheap, BTW, so likely saved you a load of dosh!

I have the earlier model which is bulkier because it uses a metal box for all the electronic-ery. With all the fly leads, it won't fit in the front compartment , but I use it at the w/shop plugged into a 16a 3 phase socket. If I was going to a race paddock, I would find out what sockets are there and just take the specific lead.

There was almost an international incident at Dijon Prenois last year. It was pouring with rain and the aformentioned Tesla was charging via juice booster from the paddock supply. A supervisor saw the lead and device lying on the ground, getting wet, and promptly unplugged it! Of course the owner immediately knew via his phone app, so raced over to see what was going on. It took a lot of convincing that it was all waterproof......

[bella]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

My Tesla owning racer friend uses paddock hook ups for charging. He has (I think right name) a 'Juice Booster' that comes with different fly leads and adjusts charge rate to suit supply. Anything from 32a 3 phase downwards. Most paddocks have 16a single which is OK. Think Silverstone 16a 3phase just to be different......

oh so it's HIM personally responsible for tripping the silverstone paddock power on a regular basis then

another thing about electric cars, my only driving encounter was with a hybrid yaris in france, where i could see electric cars being useful for the bella clan (we run a house plus water pumps/heating etc on between 70 and 100% solar power, depending on season). except it couldn't handle going up the hill on the way home every time and resorted to using the ice at horrendous mpg.

does anyone use an electric car in a hilly area in the uk? (mike you clearly can't answer that one ) how different is your mileage?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bella

does anyone use an electric car in a hilly area in the uk? (mike you clearly can't answer that one ) how different is your mileage?

Living up on the Pennines, I cannot recall seeing one EV - mind you, that might just be that Yorkshire folk have very deep pockets and short arms .

However, I can say that I have never seen an EV parked and hooked up in the charging bays at any of the local supermarkets. The one I go to most often can get fully occupied on a regular basis, but the two bays reserved for EV's are always empty. Seems as though other motorists are more considerate about not parking in those two slots than they are about parking in the disabled and parent parking spaces. Funny that!

[Akrapovic]

The most recent Leaf does regen braking though doesn't it? Probably similar to the Tesla, where even free wheeling down hill without the brakes will add charge?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by bella

oh so it's HIM personally responsible for tripping the silverstone paddock power on a regular basis then

another thing about electric cars, my only driving encounter was with a hybrid yaris in france, where i could see electric cars being useful for the bella clan (we run a house plus water pumps/heating etc on between 70 and 100% solar power, depending on season). except it couldn't handle going up the hill on the way home every time and resorted to using the ice at horrendous mpg.

does anyone use an electric car in a hilly area in the uk? (mike you clearly can't answer that one ) how different is your mileage?

A good test of a paddock electric supply is firing up a kettle in the truck. If all the lights dim you know it is 'marginal'!

Some hybrids give worse consumption in the real world than an ICE equivalent.

When I was waiting to charge up on the M11 several weeks ago, a Leaf owner occupying the charger bay complained about all the hills on that motorway..... Yes, like any vehicle, hills will affect the consumption and therefore range. If you have only a short range to start with, it will be more noticeable!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The most recent Leaf does regen braking though doesn't it? Probably similar to the Tesla, where even free wheeling down hill without the brakes will add charge?

Sure boggi will be able to elaborate, but yes.

The regenerative braking isn't adjustable on the i3, but it is extremely effective! With a bit of anticipation, it is possible to drive around without using the brakes at all. The braking effect can be so strong that the brake lights automatically come on to warn anyone behind. And it does put juice back into the battery.

Someone did a calculation of how long a hill (of a specific gradient) a Tesla would need to travel down to completely recharge the battery. And no, I don't know the answer......