Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 28 Dec 2018, 19:25 (Ref:3872881)   #1
Moneyseeker
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,376
Moneyseeker has a real shot at the podium!Moneyseeker has a real shot at the podium!Moneyseeker has a real shot at the podium!Moneyseeker has a real shot at the podium!
Are F1 teams now too big?

I was reading Claire Williams comment that even triple their budget would not have improved their car so fundamentally bad was their car, but she was sure that their review of the business would see their 650 employees do a better job in 2019 - or words to that effect. But added that they were under resourced..

Is it not staggering that an independent team like Williams has 650 staff to put two cars on the grid for a season, yet buys in an engine and associated ancillaries, yet needs more to compete?

Is it sustainable?

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
Moneyseeker is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Dec 2018, 22:30 (Ref:3872903)   #2
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,048
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
I am told there is nothing wrong with F1? I have decided to just enjoy the suck!

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 28 Dec 2018, 22:40 (Ref:3872908)   #3
Armco Bender
Llama Assassin and Sheep Botherer
Veteran
 
Armco Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
New Zealand
International Sheep Ambassador
Posts: 3,963
Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!
If the 650 employees salaries are performance linked then it wouldn't be costing Williams much for last years effort...
Armco Bender is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Dec 2018, 23:15 (Ref:3872913)   #4
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,692
S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!
Really itís a tough one. Would you really want to make so many staff redundant? Then again, sometimes cutbacks are necessary
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 28 Dec 2018, 23:20 (Ref:3872916)   #5
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 15,636
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
f1 teams at the pointy end are far, far too big. the majority of those people won't work with the car, and many will be doing work that actually doesn't influence the car running on the circuit in any way. it's bewildering.
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 29 Dec 2018, 22:49 (Ref:3873053)   #6
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,659
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moneyseeker View Post
Is it not staggering that an independent team like Williams has 650 staff to put two cars on the grid for a season, yet buys in an engine and associated ancillaries, yet needs more to compete?

Is it sustainable?
Of course not. But F1 teams will spend however much they can get in a valiant attempt to be as competitive (or in Mercedes' case, as dominant) possible. Go figure!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bella View Post
the majority of those people won't work with the car,
I'm pretty sure, these people ALL work on the car (hospitality, media, IT & transport dpartments aside), F1 teams & F1 engine manufacturers are not stupid, they are racers' racers. Those hundreds of engineers & technicians are all tinkering away on CAD models and laboratories on how to make improved parts for the cars (whether or not those parts go into production).

F1 teams are fairly barebones operations of hundreds of engineers slogging away on parts for the car (or research on how to make it faster) in a huge open plan space: Here is a Toro Rosso factory tour for example Of course Toro Rosso are one of the smaller teams. Renault, Red Bull and all the rest are similar -- and, in fact, even bigger.

Although Mugen are no longer in F1, the scale of their engine test laboratory gives you an idea of the facilties F1 engine manufacturer's have: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6He25rgnryA Here is Honda's Sakura facility, once again barebones and focused on researching engine parts to go on the car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAaJYNHG5-Y [Or for the V10 fans, the life of a Honda V10 engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-2YdVn4n90 ]

Back in 1993, Patrick Head explains that the engineers and technicians can do whatever they want, as long as it's in the direction of making the car faster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQIPaa7KDTs

I think F1 teams are VERY focused on efficiently working on how to make the car faster in fact, so I strongly disagree with your assertion.

The problem is that most teams design and machine every single nut and bolt themselves, even the gearbox. Red Bull life's of a bolt. When they could buy these in more economically from suppliers, but of course that wouldn't perform as well, so that won't do...

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 29 Dec 2018 at 23:12.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Dec 2018, 23:07 (Ref:3873055)   #7
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,659
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by bella View Post
many will be doing work that actually doesn't influence the car running on the circuit in any way. it's bewildering.
Unless you mean the majority are not involved in servicing and preparing the physical race cars. But you have to bear in mind, F1 teams are HUGE research and development and manufacturing operations.

It's not like a industrial lot race team of 10 people who buy their Porsche Carrera Cup race cars, and simply service them and take it to a race meeting and put it on the track for their customers.

The F1 teams are more like Porsche themselves, designing and building the entire 911 car from scratch and entire 911 engine from drawing board to casting to assembly from scratch too.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Dec 2018, 23:33 (Ref:3873056)   #8
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,659
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
F1 teams are fairly barebones operations of hundreds of engineers slogging away on parts for the car (or research on how to make it faster) in a huge open plan space: Here is a Toro Rosso factory tour for example
Oops, sorry that was a tour of some the machining and assembly areas at Toro Rosso.

This is the video of the open plan engineer's office at Toro Rosso, which I meant to post; it also covers the autoclaves and some of the testing laboratories which check parts that have already been used for defects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUlINLjScjU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armco Bender View Post
If the 650 employees salaries are performance linked then it wouldn't be costing Williams much for last years effort...
This is the same Williams team, who in 1993 claimed that "F1 is the pinnacle" and they didn't want "the bar of F1 to be artificially lowered" after all.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 29 Dec 2018 at 23:47.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Dec 2018, 00:16 (Ref:3873063)   #9
ASCII Man
Veteran
 
ASCII Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Belgium
Leuven
Posts: 7,896
ASCII Man has a real shot at the podium!ASCII Man has a real shot at the podium!ASCII Man has a real shot at the podium!ASCII Man has a real shot at the podium!

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
This is the same Williams team, who in 1993 claimed that "F1 is the pinnacle" and they didn't want "the bar of F1 to be artificially lowered" after all.
A team that's winning doesn't want anything to change??

Why, I am shocked, I tell you!
ASCII Man is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Dec 2018, 10:09 (Ref:3873138)   #10
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,293
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Of course not. But F1 teams will spend however much they can get in a valiant attempt to be as competitive (or in Mercedes' case, as dominant) possible. Go figure!
I dont understand why people say this. Do they spend more than the German govt can tax their people. Do they spend more then a trip to space. Do they spend more than it would cost to cure cancer. More than it costs to bio engineer an new humanity?

What rational business thinks this is the best way to invest in the future?

Is there not more money in everything else that matters but yet not enough money to do what is necessary....why dont our govt work like an f1 team and spend every cent they have and build a better future?

Does anyone think ther is more money to be made and spent in F1 then anywhere else ?

Their budget is unlimited right so they can they spend whatever they want where they want right?

But hey its always been about spending 2 billion plus a year right?

I dislike how obtuse this discussion has become...and hiw abstract from reality.

This kind of spending is obscene and if you think the shareholders think differently....well maybe they do cause things have always been this way and f1 is apparently the front end of the greatest technological forefront of human civilization.

I'm super surprised merc gmbh isn't the most coveted stock i the world...they are going to change the world with an internal combustion engine with four rubber shoes....cant wait to see how that plays out.

Like what the **** are we talking about here?

Lets complain about how rubber technology has hit its limit after a few hundred years of rubber being rubber.

I'll keep on watching the sport but I fear this forum has run out of future or interesting points of view

Sorry but true story.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 30 Dec 2018, 10:16 (Ref:3873140)   #11
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,293
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Anyways I'm sorry to be so angry of late...but how can we as a group appreciate a technology driven sport while ignoring these issues?
How can we still pretend this is normal?
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 30 Dec 2018, 19:38 (Ref:3873200)   #12
Moneyseeker
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,376
Moneyseeker has a real shot at the podium!Moneyseeker has a real shot at the podium!Moneyseeker has a real shot at the podium!Moneyseeker has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
Anyways I'm sorry to be so angry of late...but how can we as a group appreciate a technology driven sport while ignoring these issues?

How can we still pretend this is normal?
Ironically, the manufacturers are largely ignoring the F1 tech and showing their eco credentials in FE, regarding F1 as not high tech or relevant enough. This I believe will see the engine regs remain largely unchanged as the point of 'simplifying them to attract new manufacturers has been negated by lack of interest.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
Moneyseeker is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Dec 2018, 20:16 (Ref:3873205)   #13
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,692
S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!
It definitely seems that manufacturers find FE much more desirable these days, as a better way to show off technology
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 30 Dec 2018, 22:18 (Ref:3873213)   #14
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 15,636
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
I'm pretty sure, these people ALL work on the car (hospitality, media, IT & transport dpartments aside), F1 teams & F1 engine manufacturers are not stupid, they are racers' racers. Those hundreds of engineers & technicians are all tinkering away on CAD models and laboratories on how to make improved parts for the cars (whether or not those parts go into production).
crikey, are you in charge of a smaller teams hr department or something?

dig into the big teams, particularly mercedes. you'll find people whose job it is to optimise workflows, improve software that reports on particular elements of the process of running a car. it's two or three levels removed from the front line. in fact, a lot of the software teams themselves aren't linked directly to the car firing up and going around in circles. the it side of things - which you handily exclude - is huge. all those complex cad systems need maintaining, developing, investment and improving by someone. those bespoke bits of software need creating, testing and integrating. who d'you think does that? cfd is only going to get more expensive from here. eliminating the development of "x" (whatever it may be) only serves to create multiple times the expense trying to improve the processes around it. see: every time the fia limit development on a particular part to limit downforce, the percentage lost is regained within a season. defeats the object, doesn't it?

it shouldn't take seven hundred people to directly produce a f1 car. that's where the fault is. not with some of the midfield and backmarker teams working with a far more realistic and sustainable budget and workforce.

so yeah, basically what chillibowl said

on a final note, i wonder how much in r&d tax rebates the big british f1 teams get? if the smaller single seater teams running spec cars can be reaching hundreds of thousands per tax year they must be raking it in.
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 31 Dec 2018, 23:01 (Ref:3873370)   #15
Casper
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,962
Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
I fear this forum has run out of future or interesting points of view
Very true for every forum. The internet has encouraged herd thinking and anyone who has a different point of view is usually ignored. Have a look at the F1 improvement thread and there is a classic example of everyone having very narrow views on the whole thing when in fact the fundamentals are wrong, it is the fundamentals that drive F1 into mediocrity. Fix the fundamental foundation problems and the results will be different, better? that all depends on the humans involved

Last edited by Casper; 31 Dec 2018 at 23:11.
Casper is offline  
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TGF : Too old for F1, too young to die - retirement is sweet Schumiforeverever Formula One 53 21 Aug 2010 01:15
too Many series & Too many clubs ss_collins National & Club Racing 88 29 Nov 2004 21:30
Are V8's too "big" for their boots? Wizzby Australasian Touring Cars. 75 6 Nov 2003 10:13
Too old? Too careful? Time to retire?? MrSal NASCAR & Stock Car Racing 27 8 Sep 2003 14:30
Too many good drivers - too few F1 seats Valve Bounce Formula One 24 4 Oct 2002 00:47


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2018 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.