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Old 18 Nov 2020, 16:42 (Ref:4017726)   #2161
Duddha
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Originally Posted by delta View Post
I have been in touch with MSUK and they are looking
into what might be needed for us small team traveling into the EU next year. If anyone is interested e mail me and I will forward you the response i got from them.
Iain, if you could transmit as well it would be appreciated.
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Old 18 Nov 2020, 21:16 (Ref:4017765)   #2162
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Here it is:

Hello Iain
*
Your email has found its way to myself; apologies for the delay in response.
*
As I understand if there is a ‘deal’ then the current arrangements continue and you should be able to travel unimpeded in the EU area.
*
Without a deal you would be required to get a Carnet. There are a couple of providers out there.
*
Your query came to myself, as I am actively looking if we can partner with an organisation to offer Carnet’s on behalf of members to try and help with the administrative burden and guide them through the process.
*
Please see a link to some advice that we offered members in the event of the previous no-deal situation published in our October 2019 Revolution magazine. I think the advice still stands!
*
https://revolution.motorsportuk.org/...7/content.html
*
I hope that this is a useful start.* Hopefully all will become clear soon!
*
Best wishes
*
Colin.
*


Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 10:55 (Ref:4018007)   #2163
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This was sent to me by a musician friend, originally from Howard Goodall.
Some of it could be relevant to car activities.

Guys and gals here is a depressing list of what to expect after Jan 1st 2021 (BREXIT DAY) if you are going to work abroad as a muso (also works for other occupations too) [courtesy of Howard Goodall]

First things first, you’ll need a passport with at least 6 months left on it. And you’ll need full travel/third party/health insurance, since if you get ill or have an accident every penny of your care will have to be paid for.

To work or do a gig you’re going to need a work visa, just like you do for the USA. But here’s the thing. Work permits & visas and the conditions attached are a matter not for the EU but for the member states themselves
Yes, every member state controls who comes in and who doesn’t and what the rules will be for work and residency.
It’s almost as if the Brexiters have been lying about this ALL ALONG. EU members CONTROL THEIR OWN BORDERS
So you’ll need to get a work permit for every country you’re intending to work or gig in and the rules are often different, as are the rules on eg taxation of that work (eg Spain has a withholding tax, France does not)
Yes, every member state in the EU CONTROLS ITS OWN TAXATION POLICY. We already had control of our borders, our currency & our tax as members of the EU: who knew?
[Fun fact: in Germany, you need to verify a contract to work there, the verification needs a passport, and the new Brexity-Blue UK passports are incompatible with the ID system they use. Cheers, Brexit Govt]

If you play an instrument, you’ll need an ‘ATA Carnet’ for it, to cross the EU border and any within the EU thereafter. This applies to all kinds of professional equipment you may need
You get an ATA Carnet from the London Chamber of Commerce & Industry and they cost £351.60 each (or £562.80 for their express 2 hr service) and they last 12 months This is for each instrument/item. Pity the sax player who travels with sop, alto & tenor in her bag, that’s just short of a grand a time. Imagine the bill for an orchestra. Let’s hope those gigs are well paid!

If for any reason the equipment/instrument you take with you is going to stay in the EU when you come home (ie you sell/rent it/give it away), you will need a C88(SAD) export declaration (just 8 parts, 12 pages to complete) from the UK Govt.
Oh and if your (valuable, old) instrument contains materials derived from any endangered species, eg ivory from elephants, you will need either a FED0172 certificate or a CITES form too, from the APHA Centre in Bristol

Remember, you need to get offered the gig in the first place, competing against our creative counterparts still in the EU, none of whom will cost their employer any of this additional expense or bureaucratic hassle; Ditto dancers, actors, singers, designers, technicians etc

Then there’s getting there. You’ll need your van/haulier to get an EU haulage licence, neither quick nor cheap nor easy (around 80,000 hauliers in the UK are currently after one of the 1,800 available)
And crossing from a non-EU country to an EU one by lorry you’ll need to factor in a long-ish wait at the border. Pre-Brexit average at Dover-Calais was a few minutes per vehicle, Ukraine to Poland (non-EU to EU) anything from 1 to 32 hours.
[BTW, these rules mostly don’t apply to going to the lovely Republic of Ireland, which we LOVE. Thank you, kindly Irish people]

When you get across the channel, turn data roaming on your phone OFF, swiftly, or you’ll get stung for big bills now we’ve withdrawn from the EU’s roam-anywhere deal
If you connect with your fans/followers/customers via social media using phone networks, these costs could be colossal, so wait till you find somewhere with free wi-fi!
(If you want to take advantage of the EU’s cheap & easy roaming by cannily buying a burner in eg France with a French number, you’ll need a registered French address to do so fyi)

This is all become a reality because (Lord) Frosty & his Brexit Overlords in Downing St are WAY more concerned about fishing, an industry over ONE HUNDRED TIMES smaller than the Creative sector. ·

Final thought. Everything we do as creative artists - everything - is about removing the barriers between people. We do collaboration, reducing conflict, bringing people closer, unity, friendship, enjoyment & shared experience.
*originally tweeted by Howard Goodall Composer and Broadcaster 11:11:20
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 11:24 (Ref:4018010)   #2164
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I know its serious but have rather not believe all this hassle can happen. Crazy.
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 11:54 (Ref:4018017)   #2165
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I wonder how much of that is 'project fear'? I know some of it is!

e.g. I'm not aware of a single mobile operator who plans to reintroduce roaming charges in EU. My own operator states on their website:
'We plan to continue to provide inclusive roaming to our customers going on holiday or travelling in the EU regardless of the outcome of the trade deal discussions.'

For motor sport, we know that hardly anyone actually gets paid to race even up to international GT level so all the 'work' stuff is totally irrelevant to drivers although it may apply to preparers. Then again it may not, as there is no payment from an EU person or company if the driver, owner and preparer are all UK-based, and so the EU activity can be provided as an inclusive service within a UK contract. Think outside the box!

We also know from a previous post that MSUK is working to provide a cost-effective partner for carnets. If you do the admin and paperwork yourself (and who else is better placed to create a list of your car, your tools and your spares?) then you just need an official stamp from your local chamber of commerce which may run to a few tens of pounds for the year. (this was discussed around a year ago too)

I wonder if somebody will try to tell us that prior to 1974 nobody ever went abroad to race a car !
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 12:23 (Ref:4018025)   #2166
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As to data roaming, the companies give you an amount per day which you can either sign up to or not. If you do then its around £5.00 if not it's at international data rates. That said, I do expect the phone providers to continue with the current arrangements since although it was imposed by the EU they do make an awful lot of money out of it.

BTW. We have already left the EU.
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In the current circumstances, we need to do all we can to help local businesses. With this in mind I suggest we all schedule our visits to the pub so we can keep the 2m social distancing and whilst there get completely slamied for two hours before handing over to the next shift.

It probably won't stop the virus but nobody would care.
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 13:38 (Ref:4018031)   #2167
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Originally Posted by MGDavid View Post
I wonder how much of that is 'project fear'? I know some of it is!

e.g. I'm not aware of a single mobile operator who plans to reintroduce roaming charges in EU. My own operator states on their website:
'We plan to continue to provide inclusive roaming to our customers going on holiday or travelling in the EU regardless of the outcome of the trade deal discussions.'

For motor sport, we know that hardly anyone actually gets paid to race even up to international GT level so all the 'work' stuff is totally irrelevant to drivers although it may apply to preparers. Then again it may not, as there is no payment from an EU person or company if the driver, owner and preparer are all UK-based, and so the EU activity can be provided as an inclusive service within a UK contract. Think outside the box!

We also know from a previous post that MSUK is working to provide a cost-effective partner for carnets. If you do the admin and paperwork yourself (and who else is better placed to create a list of your car, your tools and your spares?) then you just need an official stamp from your local chamber of commerce which may run to a few tens of pounds for the year. (this was discussed around a year ago too)

I wonder if somebody will try to tell us that prior to 1974 nobody ever went abroad to race a car !


ahem

"Think outside the box!"

in relation to matters of taxation is not very good advice.
with or without intent, that is criminal activity

there will be a delay, a grace period until this gets looked at, of course
but we have had quite a few spectacular cases involving the German / Swiss border and professionals hauling expensive cars and bike to shows.
Those caught paid a lot of money

but expect cars and vans and lorries with UK plates to get special attention from customs and police forces, not in 2021 but by 2022 for sure
swiss lorries in Germany, are screened and checked

as to working in the EU or providing services on a professional basis
better do that with necessary permits in place and taxation sorted (if applicable)
again, there will probably be a grace period
worst case scenario: if involved in any kind of serious accident with somebody severely hurt, without proper permits in place, be prepared for things to turn nasty.
German police for instance are often quicker to arrive than the ambulance (fascinating but inevitable, more police cars out there than ambulances, so easiert to divert) and the very first thing they check (after making sure nobody needs urgent first aid) is paperwork, all kinds of paperwork, from current MOT to safety assesment requirements, to records of work related required safety training, and what have you, even if the coppers on site of the accident dont know what to ask for at first, they can contact somebody who does and that is what they do if fancy tickles them
the larger and more corporate You look the more likely you are to get put through the grinder

RudE

Last edited by Rudernst; 20 Nov 2020 at 13:44.
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 14:08 (Ref:4018032)   #2168
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All good points from one with local knowledge, thanks :-)
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 14:10 (Ref:4018033)   #2169
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Originally Posted by Rudernst View Post
ahem

"Think outside the box!"

in relation to matters of taxation is not very good advice.
with or without intent, that is criminal activity


RudE
Just to be clear why would working in the EU create tax problems? There are currently rules for working overseas or indeed rules for working in a EU state. These are unlikely to change since they apply internationally. If, as I have done, I work overseas, I either pay local tax or I pay UK tax. But the critical point is where I am employed. If I'm employed by a UK company then I pay UK tax. This applies to truckers, seamen, airline pilots, racing drivers and anyone else who travels as part of their employment. So peppers should have no problem. If as an amateur racer I want to go race at Spa then as long as I have the passport and insurances there should be no issue. We will probably need to apply for a schengen visa but that is possibly the only issue.

Where there may be an issue is the period of time of working in the EU state. That may attract withholding tax but again you'd have to be working for an EU based entity as a contractor or consultant. And any such tax would be deducted from your UK liability anyway.

As an example, Formula One Teams don't pay tax where they race.
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 14:25 (Ref:4018038)   #2170
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on reflection

OGP after 2023
Spa after 2023

events that generate public interest
and draw expensive equipment
can draw attention from customs enforcement
especially once they realise that selling and delivering a valuable racing car at the OGP from outside the EU is a way to avoid import duty
and once it is in, its in, no further questions asked
whereas, if You smuggle in a roadcar, You cant get it registered without proving import duties have been paid.

29 % on cars / bikes less than 30 years old
or
7 % on cars over 30 years (i.e. most historic race cars)

buuuut 7 % on 300.000 pounds ist still 21.000 pounds

I would expect them to just screen the main road from or to the Nürburgring one year and just pull the big artics that say "Racing" on the side
maybe as late as 2025
but this will happen at some point

and it will be less coincidental than people think

This is what happened at that Bodensee bike show.
Customs did not pull Joe Bloggs from Switzerland with his 50 cc Simson on a trailer
They pulled swiss based Harley Davidson tuners on their way to the show
with 2 extremely expensive Harley Davidson showbikes in the rear
had figured out beforehand what to look for

29 % of lets says 2 x 30.000 Euros (possible with a Harley) = 20.000 Euros import duty plus the fines

RudE
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 14:36 (Ref:4018041)   #2171
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Thought we were talking about racing not selling cars. I suspect we will need to prove import and export if towing a car. Not difficult and since, due to security, race transporters are often stopped at the border I doubt it will make much difference to journey times.
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 14:46 (Ref:4018043)   #2172
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>>>>>>>>>We also know from a previous post that MSUK is working to provide a cost-effective partner for carnets.

Mmmmm it didn't say that. It said they were trying to work with a provider to ease the administative burden. No mention of costs, I suspect that's something that the provider has little control over.
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Old 20 Nov 2020, 16:09 (Ref:4018050)   #2173
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German police for instance are often quicker to arrive than the ambulance (fascinating but inevitable, more police cars out there than ambulances, so easiert to divert) and the very first thing they check (after making sure nobody needs urgent first aid) is paperwork, all kinds of paperwork, from current MOT to safety assesment requirements, to records of work related required safety training, and what have you, even if the coppers on site of the accident dont know what to ask for at first, they can contact somebody who does and that is what they do if fancy tickles them
the larger and more corporate You look the more likely you are to get put through the grinder

RudE

Are you saying that none of this happened pre-Brexit, Rude?


I think there are many scare stories about that are just that - stories.



I was a working man for around 10 years before the UK joined the EEC and I applied for many carnets for companies I worked for with no problems and little cost working with Chambers of Commerce.


I hear all the comments made by remainers about the horrors of the UK not having a trade deal come 2021 and what will happen to British exports. I always ask the question of what Mercedes, BMW and VW/Audi will do with all the cars they export to the UK under such circumstances. We should remember that the EU sells more goods to the UK than the other direction (and I am referring to goods, not services). I am sure the level headed Germans will ensure we have suitable trade deals in place in time.
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Old 21 Nov 2020, 17:31 (Ref:4018188)   #2174
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I'm calling BS on a lot of that "Muso"'s post, too.



Just some points:



- "you need full travel insurance" - anyone with half a brain would have this anyway - an EHIC card does give you basic protection but when I broke my leg in Tenerife, it was my travel insurance that got me home.....


- Each state has their own taxation policy! - and then goes on to say UK already had this, who knew? Nothi ng like contradicting your own argument.


- Mobile phone roaming -as already said - all major UK networks have said no change, and as for having to have a local address to get a local Sim card - I haven't tried it in France but I can't remember providing one to get one in Tenerife, and if I did provide an address it certainly wasn't checked....


- Blue passports incompatible? Really? They continue to be produced to the International Civil Aviation Organisation standards for machine readable passports (and are of course produced in the EU, in Poland, so this "fun fact" bites the dust.



- You need a carnet for every instrument at £350 or so each.....Livemusicbusiness.com says "The price of the carnet depends on the value of the equipment that is being imported and exported and the destination countries. A carnet for a 4-piece UK -based rock band touring Europe and Scandinavia, including Switzerland and Norway, would be about £350.00. This assumes the total value of their musical equipment is £20,000."
I remember using Carnets when we rallied abroad in the 80s and it was no big issue.....


Why do people publish this nonsense?
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Old 21 Nov 2020, 18:26 (Ref:4018202)   #2175
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It is somewhat humorous to learn that the EU is about to breach international law by applying restrictive measure to IT companies who are required to establish offices in member states where they want to operate. This is in direct contravention of the WTO rules which the EU is a signatory. But of course they are a benign organisation just doing what they think is best for their constituents.
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