Stoner, Rossi and the "Crap" Ducati - Page 5

**Dani Filth** · 6 Sep 2011, 19:17 (Ref:2951804)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunder

Maybe so, but he has lost the essence of sill in the wet and I would imagine a loss of feeling in the front would only come about in the wet more, maybe he means he can ride without the electronics a bit more as most riders do in the wet anyway, he can make the difference.

I think we actually seen this at Misano in the first lap .. we had flags signaling slippery surface and Rossi had the fastest lap and was able to pass even Spies .. quite easily too

Trev Campbell · 7 Sep 2011, 00:54 (Ref:2951968)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

and this requires a bit of examples .. pick one/two of the GPs we had so far
and keep in mind you'd also have Rossi on a Yamaha or Honda againts Stoner on the Ducati. ..
i'm still scratching my head

I'd say Qatar, Stoner is fantastically fast there no matter what the bike. (According to him he dropped the Ducati last year because he started taking it easy and lost the front, telling with what we've seen of the Ducati this year.)

British GP. Stoner is always good in the wet.

chunder · 7 Sep 2011, 06:51 (Ref:2952004)

I would say a few riders have fave tracks

Biaggi, Fabrizio Brno

Rossi, Donington, Mugello, Jerez

Abe, Donington, Suzuka Rio

Not as common as it once was actually due to electronics, but Stoner certinely seems to be the new rainman, but I would say that is a combination of him and the bike.

Rossi just cant get the same feel from it, as we have relentlessly uncovered!

wnut · 10 Sep 2011, 01:29 (Ref:2953390)

Question to which I don't know the answer.

When did Rossi last win in the rain, name three wet races he has won?

jhansen · 10 Sep 2011, 05:12 (Ref:2953402)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

Question to which I don't know the answer.

When did Rossi last win in the rain, name three wet races he has won?

I don't know the answer either, but I am quite sure he has won races in the wet. Either way, it doesn't matter. You're equating Stoner's brilliance to his ability to ride well in the rain. Yet guys like Vermuelen and West are great in the rain and can't win in the dry.

wnut · 11 Sep 2011, 02:14 (Ref:2953678)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhansen

I don't know the answer either, but I am quite sure he has won races in the wet. Either way, it doesn't matter. You're equating Stoner's brilliance to his ability to ride well in the rain. Yet guys like Vermuelen and West are great in the rain and can't win in the dry.

No. What I am saying is that Rossi has always had the best bikes and best engineering team, having inherited Burgess from Doohan and Gardner.
When the playing field is levelled by rain he is not so good. Vermeulen and West could not be accused of having top flight machinery, hence slower in the dry.
As soon as Rossi was faced with Lorenzo, he fell off, lost the championship and moved out of the team.

I was accused of calling Rossi pants in the rain, yes I am, based on my perhaps faulty impressions of his wet weather races.
Please feel free to find races he has won in the wet, I am more than open to being convinced - I know of none.

jhansen · 11 Sep 2011, 03:28 (Ref:2953696)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

No. What I am saying is that Rossi has always had the best bikes and best engineering team, having inherited Burgess from Doohan and Gardner.
When the playing field is levelled by rain he is not so good. Vermeulen and West could not be accused of having top flight machinery, hence slower in the dry.
As soon as Rossi was faced with Lorenzo, he fell off, lost the championship and moved out of the team.

I was accused of calling Rossi pants in the rain, yes I am, based on my perhaps faulty impressions of his wet weather races.
Please feel free to find races he has won in the wet, I am more than open to being convinced - I know of none.

Per google:

Donnington 2005
China 2005
Indy 2008
Suzuka 2002

I stopped looking after that....but I'm guessing there are more. Honestly, I'm not a Rossi fan, but I think this is a silly argument on the validity of his talent. Saying he can't ride the Duc is a more valid point, and even that is not so sure, given that only one guy can ride that bike.

chunder · 11 Sep 2011, 21:44 (Ref:2954138)

Being able to ride in the wet is no indication of talent, it just shows a tyalent for being able to ride in the bloody wet!

Christian Sarron was perhaps one of the best wet weather riders, but you would hardly call him the best, nor Mamola. Michael Rutter? Awesome in the wet, as are West and Vermin, but hardly world beaters.

herowassenna · 19 Sep 2011, 18:00 (Ref:2958162)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhansen

Per google:

Donnington 2005
China 2005
Indy 2008
Suzuka 2002

I stopped looking after that....but I'm guessing there are more. Honestly, I'm not a Rossi fan, but I think this is a silly argument on the validity of his talent. Saying he can't ride the Duc is a more valid point, and even that is not so sure, given that only one guy can ride that bike.

Donington 2005, I have that race on DVD. He passed a few bikes to take the lead after a near high-side early on. Once he was in the lead, his next 3 or 4 laps saw him pulling away at 2 to 5 seconds a lap. He then just rode to the finish.
I do like the way everyone has balance in their views. Especially wnut!!! Rossi injured his shoulder early on last season. He himself has said, he thought that was a big issue in his leg breaking accident. In 2008 and 2009, he humbled Lorenzo and won the championships, and did it again in Motegi and Malaysia 2010, despite carrying injury.

Rossi this year has generally been the lead Ducati at the end of every race. No doubt, some-one will comment on him being out-qualified, but look back over his career, poles were never high on his radar. He has always been a consumate racer. How many times has he fallen back outside the top 10 and still won?
Stoner can only win from the front.
Rossi has proven over the years, he is probably the best developer of bikes out there. Ask Cruthclow regarding his WSB bike. What he's doing is a long term project. It was known he didn't have any input into 2011 bike, and I will say the Ducati bike will be a better bike for riders after his input than it is now...

jhansen · 19 Sep 2011, 18:17 (Ref:2958172)

Quote:

Originally Posted by herowassenna

poles were never high on his radar. He has always been a consumate racer. How many times has he fallen back outside the top 10 and still won?
Stoner can only win from the front.
Rossi has proven over the years, he is probably the best developer of bikes out there. Ask Cruthclow regarding his WSB bike. What he's doing is a long term project. It was known he didn't have any input into 2011 bike, and I will say the Ducati bike will be a better bike for riders after his input than it is now...

You can't win a race these days unless you qualify well AND get a good start. If you're a Rossi kinda guy that races through the field then forget it. You can't spot a guy like Stoner or Pedrosa 10+ seconds after the first corner. Then factor in time lost coming through the pack. It's game over.

I got the Dorna subscription this year and have been watching a lot of old races. You can tell they were slower in the braking zones. You can see when a guy like Rossi would just lett off the brakes a little in order to make an overtake. But with short braking zones and electronic assisted corner exits, forget overtaking a guy like Stoner that is riding on the limit with near 100% consistency. You have to follow him (not easy) and hope/pray he makes a mistake, or his tires/setup go off. That's what we've got today.

mac · 19 Sep 2011, 23:07 (Ref:2958276)

Quote:

Originally Posted by herowassenna

Stoner can only win from the front.

That may have been true in the Ducati days... But I think he has developed into a more complete rider in recent times, and I really don't think you can accuse him of that anymore.

I, too, used to think his racecraft was a bit dodgy - but he has been exemplary this season, and has made a number of passes... No doubt helped by the confidence he has in his bike, which he probably never really had at Ducati where he was usually on bikes that were a bit of a handful.

wnut · 20 Sep 2011, 00:01 (Ref:2958288)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac

That may have been true in the Ducati days... But I think he has developed into a more complete rider in recent times, and I really don't think you can accuse him of that anymore.

I, too, used to think his racecraft was a bit dodgy - but he has been exemplary this season, and has made a number of passes... No doubt helped by the confidence he has in his bike, which he probably never really had at Ducati where he was usually on bikes that were a bit of a handful.

If you are riding a bike to 110% of its potential and you come up against someone who is riding a better bike well within its limits the chances are you are not going to look like you have better racecraft.

We saw how good Rossi's racecraft was when his "ambition overcame his talent" and he crashed Stoner out of the race earlier in the year.

Hi herowassenna, if you can drop down to tenth and still win a race then you either have the best bike or the opposition is not very good. That was my point Rossi has always had the best bike on the grid, engineered by a team lead by Burgess that has won world championships with both Doohan and Gardiner. Rossi is very good, but he has been flattered by the equipment that he has had.
At the beginning of Rossi's time with Yamaha he was getting all the new parts and Lorenzo was several updates behind him.

Bet Ducati is just blown away by Rossi's development of their bike, it was on pole last year, "they had no money to develop the bike", and despite spending millions he came nowhere near Stoner's time of a year ago.

jhansen · 20 Sep 2011, 03:04 (Ref:2958314)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

Bet Ducati is just blown away by Rossi's development of their bike, it was on pole last year, "they had no money to develop the bike", and despite spending millions he came nowhere near Stoner's time of a year ago.

Neither did Hayden. He was 25 seconds slower over the race distance at Aragon compared to last year. So while Stoner is an interesting conversation, the Ducati is still a piece of crap. And it's not getting better. In fact, in some ways, it's getting worse.

chunder · 20 Sep 2011, 05:31 (Ref:2958323)

Burgess has been rumoured as saying that they don't know what they are doing to be honest!

I can't fault their effort, but that bike is junk.

If Stoner could get it to work then I dont think they will know how he did it! Even if it is the same?

The tyres this year are designed for Honda, the rules are designed for Honda as are the riders. They have bought this championship by being the only team bothered enough in the current climate to carry on developing an obselete bike.

That devalues the championship in my eyes, much like Marques and Terol winning theirs, they might win, but in my eyes they dont get as much credit as past winners.

herowassenna · 20 Sep 2011, 10:09 (Ref:2958412)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

At the beginning of Rossi's time with Yamaha he was getting all the new parts and Lorenzo was several updates behind him.

Rossi began with Yamaha in 2004.
Lorenzo joined in 2008.
So obviously 4 years of parts behind.

Airhead · 21 Sep 2011, 07:17 (Ref:2958927)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunder

Burgess has been rumoured as saying that they don't know what they are doing to be honest!

I can't fault their effort, but that bike is junk.

If Stoner could get it to work then I dont think they will know how he did it! Even if it is the same?

The tyres this year are designed for Honda, the rules are designed for Honda as are the riders. They have bought this championship by being the only team bothered enough in the current climate to carry on developing an obselete bike.

That devalues the championship in my eyes, much like Marques and Terol winning theirs, they might win, but in my eyes they dont get as much credit as past winners.

This year has been a continuance of the end of last year, in the tests to hand, the published ones, of the new 1000's Honda are still the fastest, dispels your assertion a little.

chunder · 21 Sep 2011, 10:50 (Ref:2959007)

I dont doubt that the RCV was the best bike at the end of 2010

But is the Yamaha really that bad a bike? No, it has won races and been there.

Sadly for the championship, Stoner is now on by far the best bike, meaning he is able to win pretty as he pleases unless there are issues as was seen at Misano.

tyres win this series and Honda are able to get theirs to work the best, I am not saying they dont deserve any credit, but when every 2011 Honda is in the top four largely you have to ask questions about the credibility of this championship and how seriously other makes are taking it.

Yamaha are skint, so are Suzuki and Ducati have been making duds for two years masked by a genius of a rider who cant work out what was wrong and just rode it!!

**gomick** · 21 Sep 2011, 10:52 (Ref:2959008)

Quote:

Originally Posted by herowassenna

Rossi began with Yamaha in 2004.
Lorenzo joined in 2008.
So obviously 4 years of parts behind.

Dont think a "rookie" was expected to beat a rider of Rossi's calibre in year 1 or 2

EGG · 22 Sep 2011, 13:02 (Ref:2959541)

I am hoping the Ducati will be better next year. I wasn't really a fan of Hayden in the past as I saw him as just another rider who'd been given a HRC-Repsol ride for year 1 and then had a championship fall into his lap. But I think he's improved somewhat, and using Rossi as a benchmark for the machinery they're on this year, he isn't that far behind. That said, possibly if the bike improves, Rossi might just disappear ahead.

herowassenna · 22 Sep 2011, 19:53 (Ref:2959692)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomick

Dont think a "rookie" was expected to beat a rider of Rossi's calibre in year 1 or 2

Might help if you actually read what I was replying to. Rossi was getting new parts for his 2004 Yamaha as he re-built the team into winners. He left as champion on a Honda and won 1st time out for Yamaha by development and hard work.
Lorenzo joined in 2008, so Yamaha already had their talisman, the man who guided the team.
Still, as every forum in the world proves, everyone has an a******e, like everyone has an opinion. As politicians, have an ability to look at a set of statistics and build a campaign of mis-information around them, so do fans of particular teams and riders or drivers have this ability.
We can all find arguments for why Rossi/ Stoner/ Doohan/ Agostini/ Senna/ Mansell/ Schumi are the best or they have lucked into success or whatever argument you wish to choose.
I have opinions on F1 drivers, bike racers, musicians, actors etc etc
There have only been two riders I've actually loved watching over the years, Rossi and Fogarty, because as racers they have no opposition.

I'm wanting to see Rossi back at the front because he delivers drama and in recent seasons he's upset Stoner, Pedrosa and Lorenzo by actually racing not simply riding fast. Who can forget Laguna Seca 2008 or Barcelona 2009. I mean Casey was incensed by Rossi's riding because he can't race..

Someone argued that Rossi being able to ride through the field meant he had the best bike or everyone else was not on his level. Yet he was champion in 2008 and 2009 and winning races in 2010 whilst injured, this against these supposedly great talents...

It's not often I give credit to Americans, yet they spoke volumes in 2010 when they sold an extra 50,000 tickets, when news was reported that Rossi would be at the race. Watch interest in MotoGP die when he retires

MGDavid · 22 Sep 2011, 20:34 (Ref:2959712)

chunder · 22 Sep 2011, 21:19 (Ref:2959727)

While I agree with some of your points, Rossi has beenj blighted by this year and last year. Lorenzo pummeled him in 2010 in reality, and his poor sportsmanship at Motegi in almost barging Jorge off the road to prove a point was a little poor for me.

I never liked the Gibernau move at Jerez, or the same one pretty much at Laguna. He got away with both coz of who he is.

Fogarty never did anything like that, neitehr did Mick really. Freddi did it to Kenny a bit in 83 but not in the same way.

I do like Valentino but as far as greats go he has some way to go in the class stakes to beat a Roberts, LAwson or Rainey sorry

Trev Campbell · 23 Sep 2011, 00:34 (Ref:2959793)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunder

Sadly for the championship, Stoner is now on by far the best bike, meaning he is able to win pretty as he pleases unless there are issues as was seen at Misano.

tyres win this series and Honda are able to get theirs to work the best, I am not saying they dont deserve any credit, but when every 2011 Honda is in the top four largely you have to ask questions about the credibility of this championship and how seriously other makes are taking it.

Yamaha are skint, so are Suzuki and Ducati have been making duds for two years masked by a genius of a rider who cant work out what was wrong and just rode it!!

Everyone said tyres were what won Stoner the 2007 championship !!!! So I don't think it's just tyres.

But your last comment is the one that really hits the nail on the head. It only took Rossi to get onto the same bike for everyone to realise how special Casey is.

herowassenna · 23 Sep 2011, 01:04 (Ref:2959798)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

Everyone said tyres were what won Stoner the 2007 championship !!!! So I don't think it's just tyres.

2007, Ducati runs on Bridgestones.
2008, Rossi demands Bridgestones for Yamaha. Pedrosa midway through the season had Bridgestone supply his Honda with tyres. Nicky Hayden was still left on Michelins
2009, Bridgestone became sole provider to the grid.

I don't disagree that Stoner is a special talent, but Vettel has proved a better over-taker than Casey. He really only wins from the front, and if he feels threatened he either crashes out, or feels "tired"...
What happened he drink some milk again??

jhansen · 23 Sep 2011, 02:43 (Ref:2959804)

Quote:

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I don't disagree that Stoner is a special talent, but Vettel has proved a better over-taker than Casey. He really only wins from the front, and if he feels threatened he either crashes out, or feels "tired"...
What happened he drink some milk again??

Laguna this year? He stuffed Dani in the corkscrew and then did Lorenzo on the outside of Turn 1. Hardly a cake walk.

Its easy to look like a flustered rookie when you spend 4 years on an unstable bike and were labled a crasher after one season on a satelite rcv.

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