Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Part of the problem with flagging seems to me to be it's image and to a lot of young marshals (and I have thought when I was young) it's the marshalling equivalant of train spotting.

[Darren Holmes]

Originally Posted by aland

great the MSA are listening to us then,

I think what was said is the MSA are changing the system, I wouldn't assume they have listened to us or the change is for the better

Seriously though, nice to read an interesting thread with balanced arguments.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Well said TT and that is precisely my point flagging is a speciality and one that requires very different skills to incident. Flag Marshals on the whole do a great job and have to concentrate for the entire race even tho in some races they may only have to show a flag on the green flag lap.

Incident on the other hand may appear to be just stood around doing nothing until a car comes off but thats not the case or should I say shouldn't be, and as an IO I'd be very disapointed to find one of my team "Spectating". We have our own priorities that we are watching out for like lose body work, leaking liquids etc and when there are things like safety cars I expect atleast one of the team to go and help the flaggie out whether that be by holding the SC board, waving a white flag if needed or just giving him a few minutes to give his arm a rest and so I don't think it's too much to ask for them to reciprocate that help by grabbing a broom or kicking a few stones. A good flag marshal is worth their weight in gold but it doesn't mean they are any good at incident and vice versa.

Like TT to get my Specialist grade I had to start from scratch as a trainee even tho I was an IO.

good post, i flag and because a lot of incident marshalling may "appear" to be spectating,i keep quite an keen eye in case the incident team is not... even if that may not be the case when there's not an IO or graded PC on post I(and probably a lot of other flag marshals)tend to look for leaking fluids, bad racing manouvres, racing infractions, loose bodywork and other peculiar things because as has been discussed before, its easy to miss something when youre midway through a decent chat after a long cold day sometimes subconciously watching the cars go by, if there's a good exp or io ill relax it a bit on that front.

on the other hand the flaggie is still part of the "team" (even if he/she is 50 metres away by themselves) and should not be left on the bank all day to "watch" for service vehicles (unless they cant help it), the flaggie could kick stones and keep a good look up track as with the PC, if im on post with another flaggie etc. ill commonly mention im leaving the post (unless they want to) at the end of the session and if they say stay on post, ill become quite irrated at the fact very quickly!

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

I think of myself as a pretty decent flaggie. You really think that my competently waved bit of yellow cloth is protecting you?

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you choose to do something other than incident, before you get seriously hurt!

im sticking my neb in somewhat here, but didnt he put "protecting" in speech marks (like i just have!), any marshal who has a beating heart and something called a brain knows some drivers commonly ignore/miss yellow flags

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by aland

(indeed on the days flagging I have done i still joined the track crew in sweeping)

easier for someone like you who is more aligned towards incident because youre used to that and unlike some not stuck in your ways. a lot of the decent flaggies will not get off post when theyre easily physically able to walk about off post because they generally are being the primary eyes and ears of the post like we all know, but seriously keeping a look out can be done track, can't it...
p.s before i get the yellow flags should be shown on post, i carry it with me and show it on track if i need to, whistle aswell mainly

[Woolley]

Re leaving the post between sessions, it's not a case of 'won't - it can be impractical since you have to be on the post ready to flag when the cars come round for the next session. Even on out laps cars can - and do - fall off, and there are other times when a flag might be needed. If you're 100 yards away kicking stones off this can be a problem... You shouldn't be taking a yellow trackside - it should always be displayed from the designated position, partly because that's where the drivers are expecting to see you and also because it's usually the best place for you to see them.

And regards coffee - if you're incident and didn't get to drink it you can do so once the race is live, putting it down if you need to go to something - you're supposed to count to 10 and let the dust settle. If you need to wave a flag, however, you have to wave it now so putting down the cup isn't an option.

As has already been said, a day flagging is often more tiring than a day on incident and you really need that break to rest the brain. However, that doesn't mean I won't assist if you're short handed, of course, but I won't be leaping out there from choice either!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Ubique

..... Too often I've worked with flaggies who are aloof with the incident team and keep themselves to themselves and while the incident lads are doing track checks, repairing tyre walls, dealing with recoveries or one of the many jobs they can be called on to do between races the flaggie is sat having a brew. Now don't get me wrong there are some great flaggies out there that make sure they are part of the team and when the incident guys are dealing with recoveries muck in or sweep the track to share the work load.

Could it not be said that whilst the Flag Marshal is busy flagging a practice session or a race, that the incident boys are just stood there watching......doing nothing? Swings & Roundabouts!

[Terrible-Tones]

Re Posts below....

It depends on the day - you can have days on incident where you don't have five mins - lots of things to do!

There are other days when you end up actually doing not a lot, except checking the track, and from my personal point of view if there is a break between races I'll be out with a broom and check the track.

I would imagine flagging can be the same - busy days and not so busy days - it just depends.

Likewise I have spent the busiest and most knackering days on an "option" a lot of peeps I suspect perceive is "easy", which is Startline - I have probably run further up and down a grid and sorted out more mess ups than I have ever done in an incident day.

So everyone is as valued as each other - no matter what.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

I would imagine flagging can be the same - busy days and not so busy days - it just depends.

I firmy believe that a good flaggie is always "Busy" - even if there's nothing to wave a flag at, the concentration is still required as far as reading the race is concerned.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Woolley

And regards coffee - if you're incident and didn't get to drink it you can do so once the race is live, putting it down if you need to go to something - you're supposed to count to 10 and let the dust settle. If you need to wave a flag, however, you have to wave it now so putting down the cup isn't an option.

If incident marshals are not eating during live track sessions then one the main tenets of this forum must be a myth - I refer of course to the Pork-Pie phenomenum

In addition, between sessions is the time that I used to use to study the program and in particular the entry for the next session, trying to pick out potential fast/slow cars/drivers, especially if I am blueing the session. Once the session has started its difficult to take more than a cursory glance at the program.

[Chigley]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I firmy believe that a good flaggie is always "Busy" - even if there's nothing to wave a flag at, the concentration is still required as far as reading the race is concerned.

Correct, correct and triple correct. The flaggie who relaxs whilst cars are on track is the one who misses the spinner or the need for a urgent blue.

[racerkeke]

I'm sorry if I'm injecting unnecessary levity into the situation, but I've been reading this thread with the following running thru my head: "BAD marshal. No pork pie."

And those of you who know me might say it can run thru my head because there isn't anything else in it!

But here are some serious questions:
1. If the flaggers are supposed to be watching for fluid loss, mechanicals, etc. how do they tell anyone if they are 100 ft away or across track from the main post/observer? I found myself alone in this situation at Silverstone in June and was seriously frustrated by not being able to warn anyone on my post, as the incident marshals did not seem to understand hand signals.

2. Why would a marshal not want to flag? Because it's boring? Because they've never been trained to do it well? Because it's a lonely job? (I've noticed that one flagger per post is often the case while there are several incident marshals.) Because it seems from the thread comments that there's a perception that flagging is what you do when you can't do anything else. Maybe this is an indication of a perception problem, not a real problem. I gotta say, if this is true, you guys have a different problem than you think you do.

keke
who does everything, but the MSA calls me a flagger because they can't wrap their head around what I really do.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

im sticking my neb in somewhat here, but didnt he put "protecting" in speech marks (like i just have!), any marshal who has a beating heart and something called a brain knows some drivers commonly ignore/miss yellow flags

No, he used 'single' quotes, not "double" quotes, hence the reason I missed them.

Apologies to mr exflagman if I've misunderstood your meaning.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by racerkeke

But here are some serious questions:
1. If the flaggers are supposed to be watching for fluid loss, mechanicals, etc. how do they tell anyone if they are 100 ft away or across track from the main post/observer? I found myself alone in this situation at Silverstone in June and was seriously frustrated by not being able to warn anyone on my post, as the incident marshals did not seem to understand hand signals.

That's a problem that's pretty unique to Silverstone, owing to the disparate positioning of flaggies, incident, and PCs. The answer is; if you don't have a flag radio, you don't tell anyone.

(Well, the other answer is that it's actually not your responsibility to look for this sort of thing, that's the PC(observer)'s job - obviously, everywhere else, you helpfully tell the PC, who's stood next to you, in case (s)he hasn't seen it.)

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

That's a problem that's pretty unique to Silverstone, owing to the disparate positioning of flaggies, incident, and PCs. The answer is; if you don't have a flag radio, you don't tell anyone.

Also applies at Oulton.

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

(Well, the other answer is that it's actually not your responsibility to look for this sort of thing, that's the PC(observer)'s job - obviously, everywhere else, you helpfully tell the PC, who's stood next to you, in case (s)he hasn't seen it.)

In the case of fluid loss it probably is the flag marshals responsibility, as the flag marshal has the only ammunition available to indicate to the drivers that fluid has been deposited, and they are the ones who need to know asap.

As a flag marshal I always tried to use all my senses to help me do the job better. Some would say I needed every little bit of help going

You can often hear when a driver/car is in trouble from things like tyre noise, engine note changes etc.
Similarly you can sometimes smell an overheating engine/gearbox and be prepared for the car to slow/pull off etc.
As you are looking directly at the cars most of the time it is also likely that you will spot mechanical problems.

I am by no means claiming it is only flag marshals that do these things but I believe it is all part of the flag marshals role.

[skeee]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

I think of myself as a pretty decent flaggie. You really think that my competently waved bit of yellow cloth is protecting you?

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you choose to do something other than incident, before you get seriously hurt!

Were you near the top of Paddock Hill bend for the Radical race earlier this year then?!

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Also applies at Oulton.

In the case of fluid loss it probably is the flag marshals responsibility, as the flag marshal has the only ammunition available to indicate to the drivers that fluid has been deposited, and they are the ones who need to know asap.

I am by no means claiming it is only flag marshals that do these things but I believe it is all part of the flag marshals role.

Really? Which points? I've only been to Oulton a couple of times. Island flag point is away from the post, but I thought that that was an exception.

Agree entirely, and IME most PCs specifically ask people on their post for help, but strictly speaking, the PC observes, and the flaggie operates the flags (observing the circuit conditions, not the cars themselves), so the answer to the question "as a flaggie, how do I report Things Of Interest To the Clerks?" is: it's not your responsibility, so you don't [need to worry about it]. But, I also agree is that it's very frustrating when you know of such things and have no way to pass it up the chain.

[Matthews Dad]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Really? Which points? I've only been to Oulton a couple of times. Island flag point is away from the post, but I thought that that was an exception.

From an Oulton Regular but an IO not a flaggy although i have done and will do so in future if called upon to do so, and I dont mind doing it but prefer Incident
Flag points away from PC's box
Old Hall In and out,, Island in and Out, Shell in (Foulston Advance If used), Druids In and Out, Lodge In Deer leap (other side of track) I amy have missed one or two

[Chigley]

I found myself alone in this situation at Silverstone in June and was seriously frustrated by not being able to warn anyone on my post

My frustration with Sillystones and its weird way of thinking (compared to the rest of the marshalling fraternity) has resulted in me buying two walkie talkies just so I can communicate with a flaggie / PC as appropriate. This was brought about by a large screwdriver falling off a car and laying on the racing line at Copse In with the blade pointing to the oncoming traffic. V dangerous. But for stubbornly holding a stationary yellow out the PC and Incident guys wouldn't have seen it.

[juliet]

on the part of Rockingham that is on the oval the flaggies are on the other side of the track (and it is a wide track!), not sure about the bit on the flat as have yet to marshal that part

[Woolley]

I've successfully signalled 'Car 39 peeing fuel onto the track' from the other side of the circuit. It was a little inventive - Lionel Blair would have been proud of me - and it made the spectators laugh, but I definitely got the message over!

I do agree with flagman about the various bits of research, re-sorting of flags, etc, that go on between sessions when we're apparently not doing anything

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Really? Which points? I've only been to Oulton a couple of times. Island flag point is away from the post, but I thought that that was an exception.

agreed but if youve only been a couples of times... unless you ask or have seen the question "so how many isolated flag points are there" you wouldnt have a clear view, ive been to oulton more than a couple of times and i dont know for certain how many there are,

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Agree entirely, and IME most PCs specifically ask people on their post for help, but strictly speaking, the PC observes, and the flaggie operates the flags (observing the circuit conditions, not the cars themselves), so the answer to the question "as a flaggie, how do I report Things Of Interest To the Clerks?" is: it's not your responsibility, so you don't [need to worry about it]. But, I also agree is that it's very frustrating when you know of such things and have no way to pass it up the chain.

if its not the responsibility of the flaggies then if all flag marshals were to give up reporting issues, how many things would not get reported if the pc missed it...and you dont report it to the clerks as a flag marshal (do you)

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I've successfully signalled 'Car 39 peeing fuel onto the track' from the other side of the circuit. It was a little inventive - Lionel Blair would have been proud of me - and it made the spectators laugh, but I definitely got the message over!

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

agreed but if youve only been a couples of times... unless you ask or have seen the question "so how many isolated flag points are there" you wouldnt have a clear view, ive been to oulton more than a couple of times and i dont know for certain how many there are

More isolated posts than those at the box.

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

if its not the responsibility of the flaggies then if all flag marshals were to give up reporting issues, how many things would not get reported if the pc missed it...and you dont report it to the clerks as a flag marshal (do you)

Have been known to stop the course car and verbally report overtakings/driving infringments when on an isolated post, as you don't normally have time to get in touch with the observer before the course car arrives. If they clerk wants a written report as a result would then get a pad from the observer.

[The Fat Clerk]

Have been known to stop the course car and verbally report overtakings/driving infringments when on an isolated post, as you don't normally have time to get in touch with the observer before the course car arrives. If they clerk wants a written report as a result would then get a pad from the observer.[/QUOTE]

I have no problem with this and always have report pads in the Course Car when I'm driving it.