[Official] Miami Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 5 of 23

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

This, for me, sums up why there is no reason for USA to not have 3 (or more) GPs in a season.
It is easy for many to look through a European filter at the US and think of it on the same scale as a European country. Many seem to have been content with countries as geographically small as Spain or Italy to host 2 events in a season but overlook the fact that the US is vast and geographically diverse when you consider the whole nation.

If a geographical area of 10,180,000 sq km (Europe) can host 9 events, why can't a geographical area of 9,833,517 sq km host 3?

https://kellyplanet.com/blog/learnst...1-learn-stuff/

Geographically small countries such as Spain or Italy can host 2 events because there is a huge F1 fan base, compared to the USA. It has nothing to do with the geographical size of those countries. Having said that, there is no reason why F1 fan bases can't grow in the different geographical regions of the USA where GPs are held, as long as F1 remains popular.

[chillibowl]

it would be fair to add to this discussion, that the pre race activities (the driver intros in particular but stadium seating, parades and celebrities primarily from the worlds of sport and music) is not that much different to what one would see at the Indy 500.

so i guess it is an American thing...minus the dozen or so fighter jets and black hawk helicopters flying overhead for their anthem.

sometimes i want to see Americans do their thing, it can be awesome when done right.

F1 in Miami did not do it right imo!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

100% agree. As long as the local demand exists (seems to be very much the case as long as they don't price them sky high which will be an issue for Miami and Las Vegas) and the quality of the events are up to snuff (COTA is good, jury is out of the other two).

Richard

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Geographically small countries such as Spain or Italy can host 2 events because there is a huge F1 fan base, compared to the USA. It has nothing to do with the geographical size of those countries. Having said that, there is no reason why F1 fan bases can't grow in the different geographical regions of the USA where GPs are held, as long as F1 remains popular.

so interestingly enough, ABC (one of the major US TV networks for those that dont live on this side of the pond) also has the rights to broadcast NBA playoff games on Sundays.

this Sunday there was a conflict.

so instead of nationally televising the Boston Celtics v Philadelphia 76s game (two huge east coast tv markets), ABC opted to nationally televise the F1 race instead (moving the NBA game to their paywall counterpart ESPN).

they basically opted to make this race the modern equivalent of a Free-to-Air broadcast over what was undoubtedly a far more popular NBA playoff game.

FOM and their American partners do seem intent on growing the local market.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Geographically small countries such as Spain or Italy can host 2 events because there is a huge F1 fan base, compared to the USA. It has nothing to do with the geographical size of those countries. Having said that, there is no reason why F1 fan bases can't grow in the different geographical regions of the USA where GPs are held, as long as F1 remains popular.

Good discussion. Maybe off topic but I say continue.

It is a multi-dimensional problem. It's not just country, physical size, etc. It is many factors including (but not limited to) population, population density, fan interest, travel distance to closet GP. And while it is not ALL about geographic size, that does factor in as well. And I think the point made in posts above is the level of diversity in the US. That the US is not homogenous. It may be one country, it is not one culture. And the size and population can't be ignored in the discussion.

Regarding population and population density. I think US is roughly half the population of Europe. Regarding population density, there are locations in both that are high and small. On average, Europe is 74 per square km and US is 36 per square km. But there are vast swaths of US with extremely low density. And in most places, the density is on par with Europe.



A quick snapshot of some population density in US and Europe:

Country/State/City	Density (person/km^2)
New York City	26,403
Monaco	18,960
London	10,936
New Jersey	4361
England	424
Connecticut	288
UK	272
Germany	232
Italy	200
Florida	166
France	118
California	98
Spain	92
Texas	43
Finland	16
New Mexico	6.7
Wyoming	2.3

Sources...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lation_density
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_a...pean_countries
https://www.worldmap1.com/united-sta...on-density-map

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Phew Adam, for a moment I thought as I scrolled down that there wasn't going to be a table.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

100% agree. As long as the local demand exists (seems to be very much the case as long as they don't price them sky high which will be an issue for Miami and Las Vegas) and the quality of the events are up to snuff (COTA is good, jury is out of the other two).

Richard

This does bring up a question I've had for a while now for multiple events. F1 prices in the US do seem to be premium event driven, ok, yes it is a premium event but it's high end of that.

Petit Lemans being my local big sportscar event is 100 bucks for 4 day pass, plus 70 if you want the week camping or parking.

Atlanta Motor Speedway is 50-100 bucks for the Cup race, parking in the main area is free, reserved is $75

Indy race at Barber wasn't crazy when we went 4 years ago but closed now so couldn't check so Nashville it is to price for 2023. Nashville GA is $140 for lower fence edge standing room entry, jumps to 240 bucks for Grandstands and view of more than the 20' of track before you. Can't find any info on parking pricing, there is a lot but no pricing, they recommend find your own parking downtown and get to track layout.

COTA pricing for 2023 looks to be vomit inducing. I'm just pricing based off advertised prices direct, not StubHub or other secondary. 2 day wristband is $425, 3 day is $475 for what's called Grounds Admission. It appears you are limited to certain areas around the track with that pass. Then the site has parking at $275 bucks a vehicle for on site lots.

Las Vegas appears sold out other than Hospitality direct through F1. But you can ticket packs including room and viewing from a couple hotels on the course. Or you could buy a car. MGM cheapest ticket is grandstand and complimentary stuff and track walk for 2300 bucks, but they are sold in 2 packs and then another 400-1500 a night for a room too.

So F1 race in the US ain't for the plebes. Just guessing without ANY arrival/travel/food/etc costs you're out $1000 bucks most likely to get to an F1 race. For my entire year at Road Atlanta with a reserved camp site and tent camp site add-on I paid $650ish bucks, that's every event that's open to the public in one price for the year.

I'm guessing the European rounds aren't quite so pricey and access is likely better and travel without as much parking needed but haven't been so maybe idiot American guesses.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Phew Adam, for a moment I thought as I scrolled down that there wasn't going to be a table.

[E.B]

Interesting article here: RANKED: How Much do F1 Tickets Cost in 2023?

And Adam, there are even charts and bar graphs!

It breaks down every GP in cost order for a 3 day basic GA ticket with a section on additional costs for grandstands.

Hungary is a bargain.... US$ <200 for 3 days

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by E.B

Interesting article here: RANKED: How Much do F1 Tickets Cost in 2023?

And Adam, there are even charts and bar graphs!

It breaks down every GP in cost order for a 3 day basic GA ticket with a section on additional costs for grandstands.

Hungary is a bargain.... US$ &lt;200 for 3 days

That seems to be about what I was thinking as I was looking. There were a few articles about folks in Vegas angry that the promised local tickets for GA were not found, looks like they sold out quick. All I could find were ticket packages, which for what you get at some of the hotels weren't a bad price if you really wanted to be at the first and make an event of it. But you still better be a Top 15%er

[Adam43]

*can’t click on the link quick enough*

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

This does bring up a question I've had for a while now for multiple events. F1 prices in the US do seem to be premium event driven, ok, yes it is a premium event but it's high end of that.

Sadly, it's an indication of the demand. While I am a big F1 fan, I have only attended two GPs. COTA last year and Indy in 2000. I would have gone to more, but for a long time the only option was Canada and that is not really close at all. Even my trip to COTA was a two day road trip for me. I am not a high roller. The cost is a big factor. I think more races in the US hypothetically addresses the travel time (three circuits are closer to more people than just COTA), but factor in hotel, parking, food, in addition to the tickets and it is VERY expensive here in the US. Miami would still be a long trip for me and Las Vegas is even farther away (I live on east coast).

I saw that cost breakdown earlier this week and noticed how Miami and Las Vegas are right at the top and COTA is not cheap either. It will be interesting to see if they can continue to command those prices and fill the seats. COTA was absolutely packed this year. Until people stop buying tickets, I think there will be little incentive for them to drop prices. Also, the high rollers are likely to spend big off track as well (restaurants, etc.) So if the demand continues, it might be an economical success for the local economy. Another reason to make/bill the events as "premium". I say that without known how much local subsidy these events are provided and if it all comes out in the positive in the end or not.

Sadly, I may attend an F1 race once every 5-10 years and if I want to see on-track action in person on the cheap, I will make a short drive (just slight more than an hour away) to VIR and watch amateur racing for free or maybe just cost of parking. It's quite a good value!

Richard

[1969MGCGTdriver]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Sadly, I may attend an F1 race once every 5-10 years and if I want to see on-track action in person on the cheap, I will make a short drive (just slight more than an hour away) to VIR and watch amateur racing for free or maybe just cost of parking. It's quite a good value!

Richard

Agreed. I refuse to pay the prices being charged for the F1 races here. Luckily I live close to both Daytona and Sebring and go to both endurance races and many other races every year for less $ than a 1-day ticket to Miami or Vegas. Hell, I paid $100 for a 4-day ticket to Sebring (plus another $120 for car and camper parking) this year and got got an IMSA race, a WEC race, and a handful of support races with full track and paddock access (I used to be able to get hot pit passes, but sadly not any more). In my book, that's one of the best values in motorsports. I want to go to an F1 race but I'm not willing to throw away a stupid amount of money to do it.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by 1969MGCGTdriver

In my book, that's one of the best values in motorsports. I want to go to an F1 race but I'm not willing to throw away a stupid amount of money to do it.

Yeah, I would like to get to one and maybe consider it for 50th birthday but think I would rather spend that for LM trip instead. Never could afford the plane tickets to get to Bahrain when my dad used to get Aramco Paddock Pass or whatever it's called. That would have been fun but alas he's retired so no more

[Mike Harte]

Richard, the problem is that if attendance does drop, it is highly unlikely that the promoters will reduce prices. In fact, probably their only options would be to either increase the prices to recoup potential losses or drop the event.

As far as I can remember, COTA has lost it's subsidy from the local authority a few years ago, or had it severely reduced as the local public were unhappy about the potential financial benefits that the area saw from holding a F1 race. And as ticket revenues tend to be the only source of income that circuits get for holding F1, they only have the above options available to them because of the ridiculous sanctioning fees introduced prior to Liberty taking over.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As far as I can remember, COTA has lost it's subsidy from the local authority a few years ago, or had it severely reduced as the local public were unhappy about the potential financial benefits that the area saw from holding a F1 race. And as ticket revenues tend to be the only source of income that circuits get for holding F1, they only have the above options available to them because of the ridiculous sanctioning fees introduced prior to Liberty taking over.

I used to follow that topic a bit and know that local governmental financial support for COTA has been an ongoing topic in Austin since it's inception. But I haven't followed specifics recently.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Richard, the problem is that if attendance does drop, it is highly unlikely that the promoters will reduce prices. In fact, probably their only options would be to either increase the prices to recoup potential losses or drop the event.

We are on the same page. I am talking macro vs. micro. I think you point is that promotors may have signed longer term contracts and have locked in their fees to host the race. So as you say they have few options to make adjustments. And sometimes the answer is to just stop hosting the race. I am hoping that FOM is able to make adjustments. If their priority (or one of their priorities) is to open up the US market, if they see high costs driving demand down, that they may make adjustments. So while they might be more flexible in the US as it is their pet project, they may not be (like history shows) elsewhere.

The problem is. I sort of expect their strategy to work for the short term (handful of years). It seems there is no shortage of people flush with money who will pay. Maybe there is a level of pent up demand for F1 in the US and that will manifest itself as increased demand and ability to sustain high ticket prices. But maybe at some point that demand surge might ease. I am not an economist. Regardless, the feedback loop is large and likely slow to adjust. There is also the risk of other venues willing to step up and accept higher sanction fees and then prices.

Lastly another key point is that FOM is not going through another promoter for the Las Vegas race. FOM is the promoter. So if demand drops, they are fully in control of reducing their cut to keep the race going. But FOM is also deep into investing into Las Vegas. Not only are they the promoter, they also purchased the land for and then built the paddock. The land was $240M and who knows what the paddock budget was. So they also have bills to pay off. So they will try to extra as much money from that event as they can.

Richard

[Lancsbreaker]

All these entry prices look terrifying when I think back to when I started attending the British GP at Silverstone, back in 1969......Can't remember how much it was but as earned then less than £70 per month, it can't have been much

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

All these entry prices look terrifying when I think back to when I started attending the British GP at Silverstone, back in 1969......Can't remember how much it was but as earned then less than £70 per month, it can't have been much

Richard, this 1969 British GP Poster might interest you!

I believe 20/- or £1 for General admission, 5/- for under 16.
Grandstand prices shown.
Parking free.

[Teretonga]

I was reading comments about the history of F1 and looking back with rose coloured spectacles on another F1 site....
One writer commented that there were many boring races back then but the reliability was poor, the racing not that entertaining, and the TV coverage was awful. He placed his comments around the 70's / 80s era.

When he mentioned the TV being awful that is not the way I remembered it at all.
I clung to every scrap of television coverage the sport got.
But it did dawn on me that sport can be entertaining, but it is not entertainment.
It is sport.
Television coverage of any sport occurs because the battle between sportsmen and women can be entertaining, but that is not what sport is about.

It is a contest between teams or individuals and is run an organized along particular lines, notably competition on a basis of relatively equal opportunity and if equipment is involved it is closely equal to all intents and purposes.
It is a contest between the contestants to determine the best accordinhg to ability, which is why there can be weight grades, age grading, size grades (notably in sailing, boxing, wrestling, weight lifting, etc).
But it is not entertainment per se.
Thats for movies, plays, drama productions, music et al, usually created and creative pursuits subject to the fantasies and creative abilities of those who participate.

Where sport and entertainment collide is when sport becomes predominantly entertainment, and the sporting principles are lost as the entertainment value is pursued to the detriment of the sporting value.
Max V's comments about the importance of losing the DNA of F1 are important because if the participants of the highest quality lose interest in competing there is always the likelihood that what you will end up with is a sport that becomes a parody of itself, a bit like WWE/WWF.
When the events are simply so hyped up that it's about money, and not really a sporting contest but entertainment first and foremost, it becomes a sporting sideline.
It loses its sporting DNA, if we use Max's terminology, and that seems to be where Liberty is leading us, whether it is intentional or not.

[Mike Harte]

In response to Teretonga above, F1 has been a sporting competition that was being designed for entertainment purposes since Bernie Ecclestone really got his grips on F1. It is just far more obvious nowadays because an entertainment conglomerate has got it's hands on it.

Wrestling that is shown on a regular basis has been all about entertainment for decades, as WWE/WWF clearly demonstrates. In the UK, we used to have what was called all in wrestling on the TV every Saturday afternoon as a one hour segment of the day's sporting programme, in about the 60s or maybe a bit later.

I can tell you that, even 50 odd years ago, it was pure entertainment conducted by extremely fit and talented sportsmen. It just so happens that my father, he never told me how or why, knew one of the main promoter, a chap know as Jack Dale ( real name Jack Abbey) who was the senior partner of Dale Martin Promotions who "supplied" all the contestants for the TV as well as those shows that happened outside of the TV.

Purely coincidently, our family and the Abbey family met on holiday in the 50s and for a shortish period I went out with their daughter - short because I lived in the far north of London whilst they lived in the far south of London.

Anyway, during that time Jack told us about how the wrestling matches were put together, and how each and every one was highly choreographed during the week before the public saw them either live or on the TV. Any wrestler that didn't follow Dale Martin's instructions were not included, and basically would leave the "sport" because DM had an almost monopoly of wrestling here in the UK. I would guess that that's how it is now with WWF.

[Aysedasi]

Yes, I remember the wrestling well in those days, with the likes of Mick McManus and Jackie Pallo..... Always knew that it was highly choreographed but it was amusing to watch (and hear) the 'older ladies' in the front row having a go at whichever wrestler they didn't favour......

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yes, I remember the wrestling well in those days, with the likes of Mick McManus and Jackie Pallo..... Always knew that it was highly choreographed but it was amusing to watch (and hear) the 'older ladies' in the front row having a go at whichever wrestler they didn't favour......

One needs to bear in mind that if it wasn't practised to within an inch of it's life beforehand, then the wrestlers would probably receive terrible injuries. They need to know in advance what's coming so that they can prepare and protect their bodies.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

All these entry prices look terrifying when I think back to when I started attending the British GP at Silverstone, back in 1969......Can't remember how much it was but as earned then less than £70 per month, it can't have been much

That must have been a very special Grand Prix to attend. Jochen Rindt and Jackie Stewart, two of the fastest drivers ever, on the limit and pushing each other throughout that race until Rindt had to pit.

Also, I agree with Teretonga about the Formula 1 of the past thing. The racing in the late 1990s and early 2000s was bad because overtaking was too hard. Right now overtaking is too easy which is also somewhat ruining the tension of battles. 2010 is the only recent season of a sweet spot because there was no refuelling or DRS. But the racing was best between the late 1970s and the early 1990s, because cars could get close but still had to make a pass properly. Before Gilles Villeneuve, the racing wasn't particularly exciting because it was considered too dangerous to race wheel-to-wheel. Remember the reactions from the likes of Niki Lauda to the famous Villeneuve-Arnoux scrap of Dijon 1979. Clay Regazzoni's 'dangerous' manoeuvres would be fine under today's standards. And in Zandvoort 1959, Jean Behra put up a brilliant defence against Stirling Moss for a considerable amount of time, which today would be considered fantastic racing but at the time was considered unsportsmanlike, dangerous blocking. But the stories of the races were most interesting in the late 1950s, possibly my favourite era of Formula 1 even though I didn't get to see it live.

[Derwent]

Try watching wrestling today, sometimes on ITV4 on an evening. Loads of hype build up and then highly scripted but the American audience seem to soak it up and think it's real. Sadly that the way Liberty and taking F1.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Derwent

Try watching wrestling today, sometimes on ITV4 on an evening. Loads of hype build up and then highly scripted but the American audience seem to soak it up and think it's real. Sadly that the way Liberty and taking F1.

Not only American audiences - it is extremely popular in the UK too. Live events are usually sold out, with over 63,000 tickets sold for the WWE September event in Cardiff last year.

[Adam43]

But Americans, tut.

I suspect it might just be people enjoying what they enjoy.