WMSC hearing - McLaren fined $100 million/excluded from WCC (MERGED)

[climb]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Sorry, by Italians, I meant the Ferrari team, ...

easily forgiven; after all how could we else define a team who have a French boss, a South African Chief designer, a British chief strategist, an English engineer sued because he was upset about an Argentinian being preferred, then a driver from Finland and another from Brazil ..

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Hmm, I doubt it's a law. Maybe a voluntary code of ethics, but not a law (but then I don't live in Canada)


James

No James, its law.... trust me You can lose your professional license, and you can also go to jail.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I do wonder how many of us, in Coughlan's situation, would return these files.

He doesn't seem to have handled it very well, though - if his testimony is accurate, he told Stepney not to give him any more documents, McLaren set up a firewall to block Stepney's emails, then Coughlan went and met up with him, supposedly to tell him he wasn't comfortable taking Ferrari documents, yet managed to come away from the meeting with even more of them! There's no justification for taking more Ferrari documents if he was so concerned about having them in his possession.

[Knowlesy]

I would agree he hasn't handled this well.

As a result, I hope he doesn't drag his team down with him.

[kartracer41]

Curiosity of a part or parts from another team is a poor excuse. We all know F1 is about figuring out what other teams are doing, but in legal ways. All the way from the days when they were watching the onboard feeds to figure the other teams gear and such, to now each new aero device quickly makes it's ways to other teams cars. So when information, confidential information, turns into the hands of a different team's engineer, his curiosity of knowing what is going on there, is going to lead to something down the road. You don't just look at something and forget.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by kartracer41

So when information, confidential information, turns into the hands of a different team's engineer, his curiosity of knowing what is going on there, is going to lead to something down the road. You don't just look at something and forget.

But if Coughlan didn't obtain the documents until March, we know that McLaren had already built a pretty damn fast car already. So at this point Ferrari will find it very difficult to prove that McLaren have actually benefited from any member of their staff having access to Ferrari's technical information, which is why I can't see McLaren getting thrown out of either this year's or next year's championship.

[chunterer]

But for everything to get to this stage with all the ensuing drama, there is going to be a pretty negative outcome for one of the parties involved.

I bet the Prodrive situation's all of a sudden going to get more active if the worse case scenario happens for McLaren!!

[MrTTraces]

Whatever the outcome, it's going to provide an interesting back drop to this weekends race.

Lets hope a decent race takes our minds away from all this.

[climb]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

But if Coughlan didn't obtain the documents until March, we know that McLaren had already built a pretty damn fast car already. ....

No doubt Macs had already made a fast car; but they also got aware of Ferrari's technical choices and strategies, which gave them an unfair advantage. This is the real point, not McLaren cars being fast.

BTW: in march Ferrari looked faster by lightyears, then things changed quite quickly for F1...

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by climb

but they also got aware of Ferrari's technical choices and strategies, which gave them an unfair advantage.

But settings or strategies that worked on the Ferrari wouldn't translate to the McLaren - the cars are fundamentally different so blindly following Ferraris data wouldn't work.

[Knowlesy]

The only time Ferrari looked "faster by lightyears" was in Melbourne. A one-off.

The only times they've come close to that feat was France, Silverstone and Turkey. Races, incidentally, where McLaren will have "already benefitted".

[kartracer41]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

But settings or strategies that worked on the Ferrari wouldn't translate to the McLaren - the cars are fundamentally different so blindly following Ferraris data wouldn't work.

But knowing how Ferrari achieved a certain outcome could easily show McLaren how to achieve similar results. They don't have to copy anything, just understanding what the other team is trying to accomplish can be a great and unfair advantage.

[Austinspace75]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

But settings or strategies that worked on the Ferrari wouldn't translate to the McLaren - the cars are fundamentally different so blindly following Ferraris data wouldn't work.

Absolutely. But the point is I suppose that in having 'extra' knowledge about how Ferrari works its strategy in relation to the car settings 'may' have provided McLaren with opportunities to exploit weaknesses in Ferrari's plans at moments they wouldn't have otherwise known about. Remember, winning in the modern F1 era is as much about picking your moment and/or your strategy to best exploit your opponents weaknesses as it is about having the out and out fastest car.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by climb

No doubt Macs had already made a fast car; but they also got aware of Ferrari's technical choices and strategies, which gave them an unfair advantage. This is the real point, not McLaren cars being fast.

BTW: in march Ferrari looked faster by lightyears, then things changed quite quickly for F1...

But things have changed from race to race - some tracks Ferrari have a clear advantage on, others are definite 'McLaren tracks'. It's not as simple as saying that McLaren suddenly got loads better at the same time Coughlan obtained the Ferrari documents.

According to the BBC website, the WMSC are currently considering their decision.

[climb]

many a poster underlined my "BTW", but my point is what i wrote in the previous lines: getting documents revealing an opponent's strategies gives an unfair advantage anyhow and anyways, period.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Austinspace75

Absolutely. But the point is I suppose that in having 'extra' knowledge about how Ferrari works its strategy in relation to the car settings 'may' have provided McLaren with opportunities to exploit weaknesses in Ferrari's plans at moments they wouldn't have otherwise known about.

Yep, that's true.

So McLaren gained an advantage by knowing how Ferraris strategy may pan out. And Ferrari started the year with an illegal car (as proved by their own documents).

Kick 'em both out

[mini1400]

Newsflash: McLaren excluded from 2007-08

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62312

[Red]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

And Ferrari started the year with an illegal car (as proved by their own documents).

Actually Ferrari wasn't illegal. It would have been after the rule changed, but they changed the car too.

As for the sentence, justice has been served. But I do believe that it's a bit of an overkill here.

[kartracer41]

Autosport is a bit bogged down today. I am having a hard time reading that.

[mjstallard]

Balls. Well, that's it for Formula One for me. Thank you and goodnight Max.

[mini1400]

If McLaren has really been excluded, then what's to stop Toyota emailing car designs to Ferrari, BMW, Williams et al and then getting them excluded?

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by kartracer41

Autosport is a bit bogged down today. I am having a hard time reading that.

all the page says so far is:

[quote=Autosport]
The World Motor Sport Council has decided to exclude McLaren-Mercedes from the 2007 and 2008 Formula One world championship.
More details to follow shortly...[/qoute]

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Red

Actually Ferrari wasn't illegal. It would have been after the rule changed, but they changed the car too.

As for the sentence, justice has been served. But I do believe that it's a bit of an overkill here.

Ah Red - we meet again (Still differing in our views )

As I understood it the car was illegal (but I could well be wrong and this thread isn't the place to go over that detail).

As for the punishment - way over the top. The whole thing was initiated by a Ferrari employee. McLaren will appeal though so this is by far the end of the whole saga

[mjstallard]

Five Live are saying that the explusion hasn't been announced - it's inferences from what has been said. Hold onto your hats, it's not over yet... :/

[Down F0rce]

Tenner says Alonso goes to Renualt at least in time for Japan.