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Old 15 Feb 2020, 18:57 (Ref:3957745)   #51
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Re EV car charging costs, there is one new company (Ionity, backed by a few Euro manus) that has announced a charge per Kw around 3 times that of competitors. Luckily they only have 3 charge stations in the UK, so hardly likely to worry the likes of me!

If you’re interested enough to run an EV, and take the charging aspect seriously, you’ll soon work out which are the cheap / expensive / daft options.....
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Old 15 Feb 2020, 19:10 (Ref:3957747)   #52
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I've been using the Bolloré electric cars in Paris area and they were fine, at least during the two first years. Very convenient system and great software. Unfortunately, politics…
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Old 15 Feb 2020, 19:51 (Ref:3957754)   #53
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With respect to the EV debate, I note from the Times today that there are concerns that some suppliers of charging points have fee structures that make a mockery of the economy claims:


"An investigation into public charging networks across the UK shows that motorists are required to pay an average of almost £10 for 100 miles worth of “fuel”. The study found that one operator, Ionity, charged as much as £23 for the power needed to travel 100 miles.


This was nine times the comparable cost of charging a vehicle at home overnight — £2.67 — when the price of electricity is lowest. It was about double the cost of fuel for a similar-sized petrol or diesel car going the same distance."

There is an interesting clip on youtube of Yamaha testing an electric powerpack in an Alfa 4C, though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfehJ2rkYKI


These calculations were based on a 40Kw Nissan Leaf. It does show how important being able to charge at home is, which of course isn't an option if you are going more than say 80-90 miles one-way (even with the more frugal electric cars). Even on the £10 for 100 miles cost, my 10 year old Alfa diesel can nearly match that, driven gently - admittedly driven in my normal fashion it probably costs about £15 per 100 miles. It would need a lot to persuade me to lash out the inflated price for an EV just now.
Link to new Ionity charging rates https://www.carsuk.net/ionity-increa...0-69p-per-kwh/
That does work out to £23 per 100 miles in a small EV .
But no doubt the others will have to follow because of the cost of the infrastructure of putting up charging points .
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Old 15 Feb 2020, 20:23 (Ref:3957755)   #54
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Link to new Ionity charging rates https://www.carsuk.net/ionity-increa...0-69p-per-kwh/
That does work out to £23 per 100 miles in a small EV .
But no doubt the others will have to follow because of the cost of the infrastructure of putting up charging points .

And at some point they will have to create a tax of some sort to replace the revenue lost due to falling traditional fuel sales.
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Old 15 Feb 2020, 22:48 (Ref:3957761)   #55
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 08:12 (Ref:3957784)   #56
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I have launched 'Bauble's Electric Car Charging Point' here in Luton, so if you need a re-charge in Bedfordshire just pop round to my house and I will plug you into the mains for a very reasonable sum.

Seriously there does seem room for some enterprise here. One house per street offering the service would provide plenty of available re-charge points across the whole country (apart from Yorkshire of course) to meet the need.
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 10:38 (Ref:3957794)   #57
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Link to new Ionity charging rates https://www.carsuk.net/ionity-increa...0-69p-per-kwh/
But no doubt the others will have to follow because of the cost of the infrastructure of putting up charging points .
I don’t think they will go to those prices. Trouble is Ionity have had to invest in very expensive charger tech to be able to offer the rate of charge some high end cars will be able to take.

One bonus of those very high rates per Kw are that it will hopefully deter drivers stopping any longer than needed, and doing main charge at home...

Baub, your ‘serious’ post has a point. Now new home charge meters are ‘smart’, there should be an easy way of calculating the cost per use... Prob something n the small print about not for resale, though!
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 11:32 (Ref:3957796)   #58
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I don’t think they will go to those prices. Trouble is Ionity have had to invest in very expensive charger tech to be able to offer the rate of charge some high end cars will be able to take.

One bonus of those very high rates per Kw are that it will hopefully deter drivers stopping any longer than needed, and doing main charge at home...

Baub, your ‘serious’ post has a point. Now new home charge meters are ‘smart’, there should be an easy way of calculating the cost per use... Prob something n the small print about not for resale, though!
No commercial company is going to throw money away , so will expect some return on their investment .
Oxford City Council has installed 30 street chargers , [ & hoping to do another 70 ] , all paid for by taxpayers money , approx £25000 per unit .
[Back of an envelope calc here ]. But even if they charged Ionity,s 69 pence per KWh & were in use 24 hours a day , even without maintenance costs they would still be losing taxpayers money after a years use .
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 12:19 (Ref:3957800)   #59
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No commercial company is going to throw money away , so will expect some return on their investment .
Oxford City Council has installed 30 street chargers , [ & hoping to do another 70 ] , all paid for by taxpayers money , approx £25000 per unit .
[Back of an envelope calc here ]. But even if they charged Ionity,s 69 pence per KWh & were in use 24 hours a day , even without maintenance costs they would still be losing taxpayers money after a years use .
Where does the figure of £25k per unit come from?

Typical cost is £1k to £1.5k per unit.

https://www.spiritenergy.co.uk/kb-ev-charging-point-business-case
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 12:37 (Ref:3957803)   #60
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It's possible that the additional cabling required would.have a significant impact on out turn cost but £25k per unit does.appear excessive.
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 12:43 (Ref:3957805)   #61
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Gentleman, I’m stepping back from getting involved in your discussion on now accurate or inaccurate figures are.

All I know is that there is stuff out there on the www that can be used to prove anything you want- if you want, and I really can’t be arsed.....
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 12:51 (Ref:3957806)   #62
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Where does the figure of £25k per unit come from?

Typical cost is £1k to £1.5k per unit.

https://www.spiritenergy.co.uk/kb-ev...-business-case
https://franklinenergy.co.uk/oxfords...city-councils/

£800000 for 30 street chargers .
A lot of the cost will be from the fact that a street lighting circuit needs a lot of upgrading work , IE , changing all of the lights to LED will allow 2 charger units in about 1 mile of road .
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 13:15 (Ref:3957808)   #63
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https://franklinenergy.co.uk/oxfords...city-councils/

£800000 for 30 street chargers .
A lot of the cost will be from the fact that a street lighting circuit needs a lot of upgrading work , IE , changing all of the lights to LED will allow 2 charger units in about 1 mile of road .
Perhaps it also includes an estimated service cost for replacing the units when they and their cabling are nicked and sold for early recycling?

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Old 16 Feb 2020, 13:18 (Ref:3957810)   #64
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Originally Posted by Tel 911S View Post
https://franklinenergy.co.uk/oxfords...city-councils/

£800000 for 30 street chargers .
A lot of the cost will be from the fact that a street lighting circuit needs a lot of upgrading work , IE , changing all of the lights to LED will allow 2 charger units in about 1 mile of road .
Interesting that Franklin offer home charging points from £480 per unit.
The cost of the charging point itself is a small percentage of the overall cost to Oxford Council. The rest being other infrastructure works and to fund the research and studies that this project feeds into.
It's not the best example to use as a paradigm for EV charger costs.
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 13:32 (Ref:3957813)   #65
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As Mike says the internet can provide support for any argument. So in this case I would rather use my experience in construction projects and suggest that the costs being described are an all up estimate to include the infrastructure upgrading.

In my case I'm told that the maximum cost of installing a home charger is £1500. But since I have a consumer unit in my garage, where the charger would be installed, this may actually be less.

Overall there is a massive shift in philosophy from the major energy companies. On Friday, in the high street, there were a couple of people canvassing folks on green energy. The company they were promoting was Shell.

BP is coming to the party with its 2050 target. All of this of course may be pandering to St. Geta and her ilk but sadly I expect it to be the norm.

It does mean that there will be more employment on new, renewable projects, which can only be a good thing.
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 14:06 (Ref:3957817)   #66
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Interesting that Franklin offer home charging points from £480 per unit.
The cost of the charging point itself is a small percentage of the overall cost to Oxford Council. The rest being other infrastructure works and to fund the research and studies that this project feeds into.
It's not the best example to use as a paradigm for EV charger costs.
Not for home chargers perhaps. But once you get to a public service with its liability aspect, faster charging needs and greater utilisation (absent which there is no commercial case for providing them) the costs will no doubt escalate quickly.

Home chargers, from what I can work out, max out at about 7kW - so about the same or a little less than a decent electric shower.

So under optimum conditions (i.e. battery not totally discharged to start with) a typical present day every day electric car can reasonably be expected to charge up overnight with costs varying based on 30 minute price periods. In 8 hours one could add about 56kW of charge minus whatever overhead is required for losses and how the battery management works for the particular model of vehicle.

The £480 price seems to be just the base unit without cable and installation or the whole caboodle so long as the £500 subsidy is still available.

Now to get 7kW feed from a 30amp rated domestic supply at 240volts would seem to require 100% of available supply capacity so presumably if anything else in the house is running the charge rate would be less.

One could always in vest in an upgrade to a 3 phase supply I suppose ... it may be necessary once Gas heating is outlawed.

If there were 2 or 3 vehicles to be charged at the same property I assume either 3 phase or multiple connections would be a clear requirement.

Last edited by grantp; 16 Feb 2020 at 14:22.
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 14:09 (Ref:3957818)   #67
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I don't doubt that Oxford Council have spent £800k on the project.
I also don't doubt that there will be 30 charging points installed in the area as part of the project.

What I don't agree with is that the project in question can be used as an example of typical EV charging point costs, as there are too many other factors involved with the project.

It's similar to having a phone line installed at a new build. The cable run from the first house to the nearest exchange might be 5-6 kilometres, and this might cost £30k-£40k to install. What that does not mean is that it can be used as an argument for it costing £40k to install a phone line.
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 14:13 (Ref:3957819)   #68
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The £480 price seems to be just the base unit without cable and installation or the whole caboodle so long as the £500 subsidy is still available.
It's a fully installed unit, without using subsidies, for £480 plus vat.

As an aside, we are currently looking at getting EV charging points installed at our workplace. The quotes (without subsidy) range from £600 to £1100 per unit fully fitted.
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 14:40 (Ref:3957821)   #69
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As Mike says the internet can provide support for any argument. So in this case I would rather use my experience in construction projects and suggest that the costs being described are an all up estimate to include the infrastructure upgrading.

In my case I'm told that the maximum cost of installing a home charger is £1500. But since I have a consumer unit in my garage, where the charger would be installed, this may actually be less.

Overall there is a massive shift in philosophy from the major energy companies. On Friday, in the high street, there were a couple of people canvassing folks on green energy. The company they were promoting was Shell.

BP is coming to the party with its 2050 target. All of this of course may be pandering to St. Geta and her ilk but sadly I expect it to be the norm.

It does mean that there will be more employment on new, renewable projects, which can only be a good thing.

Peter,

The bigger players seem to have decided that the political direction for the foreseeable future in much of the developed world we be to spend a load of tax generated revenue, one way or another, on whatever people can swing as being "green" and "saving the planet".

Commercially it makes more sense to work out how to earn bonuses going with that flow than fighting against it - especially if one's traditional business model is facing increasing operational costs and ever greater erosion of potential income from bread and butter customers due to the flat nature of post 2008 economics and the aforementioned tax grabs by governments wanting to do things their way.

If one looks at what has happened to the UK's state owned "Privatisation" champions in recent years once the stock was made available to the little man in the street one can see how value was deliberately eroded by mainly political decisions about direction.

What today's children are going to do once the entire savings and pension industry has evaporated into funding for the big players in the world of "greenness" should be of concern to some people today but seems not to be.

Greta may actually have the right message but for entirely the wrong reasons. There again the basis of her message is so broad that the concept could be applied to anything. Which is probably very convenient and likely not a situation arrived at purely by chance.
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 14:48 (Ref:3957822)   #70
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It's a fully installed unit, without using subsidies, for £480 plus vat.

As an aside, we are currently looking at getting EV charging points installed at our workplace. The quotes (without subsidy) range from £600 to £1100 per unit fully fitted.

Are you sure?

Here's the configurator.

£480 for the wall unit at 3.7kW and type 1 , 4M cable and no installation exc. VAT.


https://franklinenergy.co.uk/product...ing-solutions/
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 15:29 (Ref:3957827)   #71
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Are you sure?

Here's the configurator.

£480 for the wall unit at 3.7kW and type 1 , 4M cable and no installation exc. VAT.


https://franklinenergy.co.uk/product...ing-solutions/
Slightly different to an advert of theirs that I saw.
But still, through the configurator it comes in at £800+vat without grant.
Still a lot less than £25k.....
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 17:25 (Ref:3957834)   #72
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Back in the 70’s and 80’s when I was a retained fireman I also was no2 driver .No 2 as no 1 lived closer to the stations and always beat me to the driving seat .. When I did get to drive I was so excited I would forget to unplug the battery charge lead . We would get half way down the drive and there would be a bang as wires broke all over the place . My Sub officer would then go mad at me as there was always lots of paperwork he had to do to get charger repaired . I just put the two tones on full blast . Happy days .
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 17:31 (Ref:3957835)   #73
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Back in the 70’s and 80’s when I was a retained fireman I also was no2 driver .No 2 as no 1 lived closer to the stations and always beat me to the driving seat .. When I did get to drive I was so excited I would forget to unplug the battery charge lead . We would get half way down the drive and there would be a bang as wires broke all over the place . My Sub officer would then go mad at me as there was always lots of paperwork he had to do to get charger repaired . I just put the two tones on full blast . Happy days .
Y'see? There's positives in everything.
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 17:47 (Ref:3957836)   #74
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Y'see? There's positives in everything.

I don,t know WATT you were thinking of there Peter , there are also negatives in that .

Q the electrical jokes .
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 18:02 (Ref:3957838)   #75
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I believe there's at least a spark of interest in this topic.
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