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22 Nov 2021, 12:43 (Ref:4084949) | #251 | ||||
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Personally I'm in favour of cars that can adapt between high downforce in the corners and lower downforce/drag on the straight as long as it is a passive system (not electronics or driver triggered) and it maintains safe and predictable driving characteristics. I'm in favour of it for several reasons: 1 It is more efficient (I find dragging barn doors through the air at 200mph a ridiculous idea from a technical point of view). 2 High efficiency, means less fuel, which means lighter cars. 3 It is innovation. 4 It gives the engineers more to do in an era where the rest of the aerodynamics is more prescribed. 5 You can avoid this endless discussion of "bending wings". I've never heard a single good argument why that should not be allowed. |
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22 Nov 2021, 13:07 (Ref:4084950) | #252 | ||
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I have a question regarding the yellow flags during Qualifying. Don't all groan at once. Was the yellow flag, double or single, waived just at Verstappen, Bottas and Sainz or was it waived at other drivers as well?
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22 Nov 2021, 13:17 (Ref:4084951) | #253 | ||
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While I am a proponent of active suspension, I also have no problem with a more formalized active aero setup. As F1 struggles to continue to be able to set itself a step above other series (and we have seen how expensive that can be if that differentiation is via expensive and complex power units), I think active suspension and aero could be the ticket to do that in the future. Richard |
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22 Nov 2021, 13:24 (Ref:4084952) | #254 | |||
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Basically it was a mixture. tbh should have been double waved all the way through, however it was a developing situation with a slow car then grinding to a halt, so in real time its actually quite a tricky situation for marshals to assess. Ive been in this situation before where a slow moving car should be a white flag, which then changes to a yellow, but because of the location of marshal posts, if the car stops just before or after the post it can change the flag youre using. Although if in doubt, over do it....noone (other that horner) will criticise you for being extra cautious where safety is concerned. |
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22 Nov 2021, 14:14 (Ref:4084956) | #255 | ||
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And if you are the driver you obey it, you do not overule the marshals.
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22 Nov 2021, 14:15 (Ref:4084957) | #256 | ||
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I don't like too much electronics, because I like the idea of the driver taking a car and work with it's characteristics and strong and weak points and work with it on different tracks and through different corners. If you have the electronics being so effective, what is there for driver to do but point the car in the right direction? I know this is a strong exaggeration, but still. I rather have the driver handling a bump in the corner than the predetermined algorithms of a computer controlled suspension. I prefer that door/sliding slope to stay firmly shut. One of the reasons why I dislike the current PU is that you can't properly follow what going on form the outside. What is the charge state, how much power does it driver have at his disposal. The source of the performance then becomes a bit distant and vague let's say. |
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22 Nov 2021, 14:17 (Ref:4084958) | #257 | |||
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Thanks for that. Very interesting to watch. So there were other drivers involved. Those captions appear to correspond with the footage and most of those captions say, nothing on the boards, nothing on the dash and no waived flags, though there a couple that say ''looks like maybe single or double'' in brackets/parentheses. I presume Verstappen got a double yellow because he was the first into zone? |
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22 Nov 2021, 14:20 (Ref:4084959) | #258 | |||
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Horner can say the situation was confusing, but that doesnt cut it. When it boils down to it, you have a driver, in control of the car who has to drive the car unaided and must assess the track conditions with his own eyes. Basically, Max needs to spot the flags and act accordingly, he didnt and neither did some others so they got penalised. Other drivers DID react accordingly and slowed down, thus avoiding a penalty. All the other bumph over flashing lights, radio messages or lights on the dashboard are irrelivant, because the flag is what counts. Basically i think drivers have become too reliant on these other things and have taken their eye off the ball where flags are concerned. |
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22 Nov 2021, 14:26 (Ref:4084960) | #259 | |||
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Alonso passed Gasly as he was slowing, car is still travelling slowly at this point towards its final resting place so no boards but he took it on himself to slow, becuase there was a danger on track so aired on the side of caution. Vettel then recived a flashing light so slowed down because it was when gasly had ground to a halt Norris then recieved the flashing board, but it went out as he approached because gasly had stopped just after the next marshal point, i assume they were just getting the yellow flags out at this point Verstappen was the first driver to recieve double yellows as Gaslys car had stopped so they were appropriately being waved. Bottas and Sainz then passed single waved yellows. Im not personally sure why it was downgraded from a double waved to single waved, but i suspect becuase of the positioning of the car it was deemed not to be a double waved incident, however in reality whether its double or single, you still need to slow down. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in race control. Vettel sarcasticly commented that he thinks the yellow light was turned off because Max was coming....they are controlled by race control and not the marshals IIRC, however the marshals were still waving the yellow flags becuase they could see on the ground that there was still a danger on circuit. So, did race control turn off the lights because they thought the danger had passed, or was vettel correct? Either way, not a fine example from race control....luckily the marshals did things correctly |
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22 Nov 2021, 14:32 (Ref:4084961) | #260 | |||
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Gasly slows - yellow flag sector 18 Clear Chequered flag Yellow flag sector 20 Ocon crosses the line (passed the marshal post before flag shown) Then, the following drivers pass the yellow flag. Vettel - slowed Norris - slowed Alonso - slowed Bottas -didn't slow Sainz - slowed (but only marginally, and some debate over whether this was from being slow out of the corner) Flag changes to double yellow Verstappen - didn't slow And for those querying the 'green light' on the right hand edge of the track. It is in the pitlane, not trackside and is not visible from drivers'-eye level. |
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22 Nov 2021, 14:48 (Ref:4084965) | #261 | |||
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Is that the chronological order of events, because I thought Bottas and Sainz then went past after Verstappen and the flag had been downgraded from double to single? |
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22 Nov 2021, 14:53 (Ref:4084968) | #262 | |||
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Looking at Youtube the order of drivers on the tracker is Hamilton Gasly Tsunoda Ocon Vettel Norris Alonso Bottas Sainz Verstappen |
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22 Nov 2021, 14:53 (Ref:4084969) | #263 | ||
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I thought that Verstappen was last on track.
Someone will know... |
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22 Nov 2021, 14:54 (Ref:4084970) | #264 | |||
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The flag was elevated from single to double |
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22 Nov 2021, 15:03 (Ref:4084972) | #265 | |
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next round Max can be crowned champion if Lewis DNF and Max gets on podium
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22 Nov 2021, 15:24 (Ref:4084975) | #266 | ||
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Ignore.
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22 Nov 2021, 15:25 (Ref:4084976) | #267 | |||
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Thanks for that. In post #250 you say: ''And for those querying the 'green light' on the right hand edge of the track. It is in the pitlane, not trackside and is not visible from drivers'-eye level. '' Looking at those images, it looks like the yellow flag is more or less on the same level as the pitlane light. This is the view from Sainz' aitbox cam. |
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22 Nov 2021, 15:42 (Ref:4084979) | #268 | ||
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From the drivers' eye, the panel in the pitlane is obscured by the advertising hoarding / pit wall. The marshals' post, however, extends beyond the wall towards the live circuit. If you open up the Verstappen image, you can see that the lower of the two yellow flags is in front of the advertising (from the driver's perspective). The circuit map shows that there are 26 Marshal posts at Losail, but only 20 Marshal Light panels. When people have referred to the light panel (being on/off) on the outside of the track, this is in the proximity of Marshal Post 25. The yellow flags that were not adhered to were at Marshal Post 26. There is no Light Panel at this point, it is not one of the mini-sectors that race control relay messages in relation to either. |
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22 Nov 2021, 16:01 (Ref:4084983) | #269 | ||
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I see that but there is also the sign for the beginning of DRS zone, just before the Marshal's post and the image is not from the driver's perspective, but from the airbox cam. The driver is much lower. |
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22 Nov 2021, 16:14 (Ref:4084987) | #270 | |||
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The yellow flags and DRS sign are all track-side of any furniture and so visible from the drivers' perspective. The light panel in the pitlane is not track-side, and so (at least partially) obscured from the driver. Attached is an image (in daylight) of the pitlane light panel. The shrouding is just visible. Another interesting point I note (at least to me) - the number of Marshals' posts increased from 26 for FP1 to 44 before qualifying. I wonder if this was a factor in the race control messages and interaction with Marshals' posts? |
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22 Nov 2021, 16:42 (Ref:4084996) | #271 | |||
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I understand what you're saying about the pitlane light. However, the marshal's post is behind the track perimeter barrier and the DRS sign is trackside and before the marshal's post. I think the DRS sign might obscure the marshal's post enough, making it difficult to see the flags, which may explain why both Bottas and Verstappen said they couldn't see any flags. Their perspective is much lower than the airbox cam. |
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22 Nov 2021, 17:14 (Ref:4084999) | #272 | |||
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There is also the matter of angle - so if the DRS sign obscures at one point, then before and after that point the angle of sight is different. |
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22 Nov 2021, 17:18 (Ref:4085001) | #273 | |||
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True. Unfortunately without a helmet cam or visor cam that remains an unknown, there is only the footage from the airbox cam. |
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22 Nov 2021, 17:28 (Ref:4085005) | #274 | |
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Yes I think that is a good point there. I also think frequent SCs and VSCs mean some drivers don’t see yellow flags as anything worth slowing down for anymore
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23 Nov 2021, 02:29 (Ref:4085046) | #275 | |
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I think that the light panels are generally reliable, and far more visible than the flags, especially in the dark, so the drivers generally just rely on the light panels and dashboard lights. They then get caught when the lights are not properly activated when a flag is thrown. If the lights are unreliable, perhaps the FIA should just pull the lights and rely on the flags alone.
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