The new great grid girl debate

[AndrewCherry]

Everyone who invokes tradition is usually very selective about which traditions they wish to see return. Leather crash helmets and optional seat belts seem to have very few fans clamouring for resurrection, so why are so many people concerned about this particular tradition?

Because it's a proxy fight. It's a very simple and easily promotable example of a wider societal change - a large number of people (many women, but also a lot of men) saying "look, X isn't acceptable anymore" - in this case X = using women as decorative scenery/furniture. And sure, you can make it about "those poor women, they've lost their jobs" all you like, but nobody on the pro-grid girls side is (correct me if I'm wrong) out there marching for better rights for cleaning agency staff, or stronger protections from harassment for hotel workers.

It's not the grid girls. It's the world they stand for. I'm quite comfortable with that world passing in to history and living in a world which no longer sees 50% of the population as potential decoration/a prize for men.

[Richard C]

Living in the US (particularly in the south), I see many parallels between this discussion and the discussion about how and when to display the Confederate battle flag. “Tradition” and “heritage” being shared arguments for keeping the status quo regardless of how many (most?) view the symbol in question.

I think a point missed here is that symbols from the past that may have started with one purpose or meaning evolves (or is co-opted) into having a different meaning as time moves forward. The swastika is an example of this. I predates Nazi Germany, but now is difficult to use in any prior historic context given the negative connotation of our recent past.

To be clear, I can very well see both sides of these arguments and have my own mixed feelings. For example I grew up with the concept of grid girls and at least I “think” it didn’t create or enforce any negative biases toward women (I very much like to think I am not the stereotypical ogre male regardless of the era of my youth, but we all have our biases and are sometimes blind to them). I think I had a very innocent (maybe naive) viewpoint for a long time. It was part of the show and I just didn’t put much thought into it. And today, while not everyone might agree, I don’t see being a sexual creature (if you got it, flaunt it) being contrary to feminism. Many arguments for the status quo.

But today I can also clearly see the counter argument of degradation and more importantly ( for me) acting to reinforce negative gender roles when viewed by young children, especially young girls. For me.. that strongly outweighs “how it used to be” and a need to cling to something that may not have really existed in the pure form some like to think it was.

And while many here who support the status quo may be loath to admit this, clearly part of the grid girl concept is nothing more than women as decoration (a pervasive negative gender role). Dressing that up with gentle euphemisms such as “glamour” doesn’t make the bad part go away.

Richard

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Surely the viewpoint that matters the most here is the view of the grid girls themselves???

Nobody forced them to accept that job, and I don't see why anyone should force them not to...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Living in the US (particularly in the south), I see many parallels between this discussion and the discussion about how and when to display the Confederate battle flag. “Tradition” and “heritage” being shared arguments for keeping the status quo regardless of how many (most?) view the symbol in question.

I think a point missed here is that symbols from the past that may have started with one purpose or meaning evolves (or is co-opted) into having a different meaning as time moves forward. The swastika is an example of this. I predates Nazi Germany, but now is difficult to use in any prior historic context given the negative connotation of our recent past.

To be clear, I can very well see both sides of these arguments and have my own mixed feelings. For example I grew up with the concept of grid girls and at least I “think” it didn’t create or enforce any negative biases toward women (I very much like to think I am not the stereotypical ogre male regardless of the era of my youth, but we all have our biases and are sometimes blind to them). I think I had a very innocent (maybe naive) viewpoint for a long time. It was part of the show and I just didn’t put much thought into it. And today, while not everyone might agree, I don’t see being a sexual creature (if you got it, flaunt it) being contrary to feminism. Many arguments for the status quo.

But today I can also clearly see the counter argument of degradation and more importantly ( for me) acting to reinforce negative gender roles when viewed by young children, especially young girls. For me.. that strongly outweighs “how it used to be” and a need to cling to something that may not have really existed in the pure form some like to think it was.

And while many here who support the status quo may be loath to admit this, clearly part of the grid girl concept is nothing more than women as decoration (a pervasive negative gender role). Dressing that up with gentle euphemisms such as “glamour” doesn’t make the bad part go away.

Richard

I'm not too sure if the Confederate battle flag and the Swastika are good comparisons, considering how politicised they are.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not too sure if the Confederate battle flag and the Swastika are good comparisons, considering how politicised they are.

IMHO the politicization has no real bearing on the underlying truths as to why they are a cultural and social issue. I think they are good comparisons... particularly the flag issue here in the US.

I want to clarify something about my post above. I am not equating those who support grid girls with Nazis or racists. Rather, I am saying they (particularly the flag and grid girl issues) share a weak argument (tradition), which IMHO ignores the fact that social norms are not static and never have been. What is painful is living through and adjusting to an inflection point.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

IMHO the politicization has no real bearing on the underlying truths as to why they are a cultural and social issue. I think they are good comparisons... particularly the flag issue here in the US.

I want to clarify something about my post above. I am not equating those who support grid girls with Nazis or racists. Rather, I am saying they (particularly the flag and grid girl issues) share a weak argument (tradition), which IMHO ignores the fact that social norms are not static and never have been. What is painful is living through and adjusting to an inflection point.

Richard

I think the politicization is very much to do with why they are a cultural and social issue. Otherwise, I see what you are saying about tradition.

[BertMk2]

I have to admit I've kind of tuned out a bit on this thread but I did see something relevant over the weekend - Leena Gade has posted a few bits on social media:

Originally Posted by Leena Gade

#gridgirls and dropping them. Don't understand the logic that observers outside of this sport have come up with - did you bother to ask why there is a shortage of engineers, drivers and mechanics in general? It's down to **** poor education from peers.

Banning grid girls is politically correct and will be about as successful as Playboy getting rid of nudity #AddressTheCorrectProblem

#gridgirls represent brands, sponsors and teams, they are product aware and get paid to inform prospective customers of opportunities. Many use the money they earn to supplement income and their education. They dress as requested, in many series demurely and with class.

The semi naked era was over long ago and even if it existed when I was aspiring to be in motorsport it wouldn't have changed my mind - behind me were savvy parents and teachers who supported and encouraged my choice. Banning these women from earning their living isn't equality.

Stop thinking 4 those of us in the sport, ask school girls if they'd choose motorsport and bother to ask why girls are brought up to believe spanners, engineering, PR, marketing, team management and driving aren't for them. I bet it boils down to peers telling them its impossible

Don't use me as an "example" of a woman who made it, my sport is full of plenty of women who "made it" in a male dominated arena & weren't put off "by the sexualization of women". We got here because of our passion and because we saw and believed in a function we wanted to do.

Seems to cover the issue quite well I think.

[S griffin]

She seems to come off with good sense there, this ban is not gonna change much tbh

[Akrapovic]

But the Liberty statements don't say they have stopped hiring grid girls for that reason. Why is it not enough that they don't feel it represents their brand, and the image that they want to put across with their product? Why does this have to be an even bigger issue than it currently is?

A company decided that using women as purely aesthetically props to look at doesn't fit with their image. I really can't see a problem with that. Of all the thousands of massive, some huge negative, changes that have gone on in F1 over decades, few seemed to have caused issues as big as this.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I have to admit I've kind of tuned out a bit on this thread but I did see something relevant over the weekend - Leena Gade has posted a few bits on social media:

The ridiculousness of this bit made me laugh...

#gridgirls represent brands, sponsors and teams, they are product aware and get paid to inform prospective customers of opportunities

Richard

[Mekola]

I'll give you a fair point on this thread:
What's worse? To have grid girls or to have grid robots instead?
Just my two cents.

[bella]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I have to admit I've kind of tuned out a bit on this thread but I did see something relevant over the weekend - Leena Gade has posted a few bits on social media:

Seems to cover the issue quite well I think.

the only thing i struggled with is that she mentions she has savvy parents and teachers supporting her. that’s one hell of a privilege that many girls don’t get. my parents were supportive to a point, but saw working in f1 as the same kind of pipe dream *driving and racing* in f1 is. and my folks did everything they humanly could to get me a good education and give me a good start in life. don’t get me wrong, i know women from less supportive backgrounds who are absolutely smashing it, but they have almost inhuman amounts of determination.

the reality is a lot of girls have to be their own cheerleaders, especially when they’re younger and don’t have anyone to share their interest with. the plus side of an online community now is that they can reach out to women already in the sport quite easily, and d2bd gives a good starting point.

it’s a touch of the “if i can, so can anybody”s, which frankly is never, ever that simple.

[Akrapovic]

Grid Girls in F1 do not represent brands. They may do in BTCC, but not in F1. That part simply is not true.

[Greem]

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-and-for...lled-grid-kids

I should sting them for copyright; I suggested that ages ago!

[Akrapovic]

As did I. If anyone wants to hire me, I'm available.

[Aysedasi]

Have you got a suitable costume?

[bella]

*resists obvious joke about there already being 20-odd clowns on the grid*

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by Greem

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-and-for...lled-grid-kids

I should sting them for copyright; I suggested that ages ago!

What about child exploitation? I doubt the children will be paid the same as the grid girls, and we know F1 visits countries with dubious child labour laws.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by mark_l

What about child exploitation? I doubt the children will be paid the same as the grid girls, and we know F1 visits countries with dubious child labour laws.

I was wondering if F1 has been taken over by the Catholic church or the Tory party

[steve_r]

Good move - make the sport more accessible to kids. Hopefully inspire them - much like they did in the London 2012 Olympics opening ceremony etc.

[S griffin]

No different to what they do in football with the little mascots that come on the field

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by S griffin

No different to what they do in football with the little mascots that come on the field

In Football the kids walk out on to the pitch from the shade of the tunnel, stand for the national anthems and then leave.

In F1, the kids will be on the grid before the pit lane opens, then stand about in the heat of the day for about 45 minutes till the anthems have been played and the grid cleared at the 5 minute board. Hardly compares.

[Mike Harte]

And no doubt that they will need a grid girl to supervise them /ensure their safety!

Two birds killed with one stone!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Greem

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-and-for...lled-grid-kids

I should sting them for copyright; I suggested that ages ago!

Greem, not sure if it was you, but someone suggested (maybe in the other thread that was closed) the easy answer here is to use this as a "fan involvement" opportunity. It was/is such an obvious good idea it boggles why it hasn't already been done.

Richard

[Greem]

Originally Posted by mark_l

In Football the kids walk out on to the pitch from the shade of the tunnel, stand for the national anthems and then leave.

In F1, the kids will be on the grid before the pit lane opens, then stand about in the heat of the day for about 45 minutes till the anthems have been played and the grid cleared at the 5 minute board. Hardly compares.

And they (plus their families) will potentially get to meet drivers, mechanics, engineers and designers, have garage tours, see the razmattazz and hurly-burly of the paddock and grid, then get to watch the race - which they might never have been to.

At club football matches the kids and their families are involved with the team for hours - tours of the ground, meet the players, maybe have a warmup kickabout, have a meal in an executive box *and* get to watch the match.

It's an almost exact analogue, and we should be getting behind it as it will influence and inspire some of the children. Not all, but some.

I genuinely can't understand the whole 'exploitation' thing at all. It seems that this is one of those "I HAVE TO BE ANGRY ABOUT SOMETHING" knee-jerk responses