2017 Advance Auto Parts Sportscar Showdown(IMSA @ CoTA) - May 05-07

[chernaudi]

And yet when 15 years ago Audi Sport were doing the same in the ALMS, the amount of complaining was nowhere near what it is now...

[gert]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Dude ...

There's no need for that. I don't do that either.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

You have heard, "To finish first, you must first finish"?

I do. You seem to think I'm complaining about the race finishes. I'm not.
Like I explained before, I have an issue with the Cadillac dominating pretty much everything.

As a better car;, better team, better drivers, I can accept that they win more often than not.

However, just looking at the practice and qualifying sessions in an ideal world - or a BoP-ed world, everything should even out a bit there and then. Not the case.

I have no idea how they (try to) BoP the different cars.
Back in the beginning of the GT3 days, the purpose of the BoP was to make sure every single car was capable of doing the same laptime.
That's not something we see here, do we?

IIRC in GT3 all cars were tested by a designated driver (don't recall his name, sorry) to make sure the BoP was right and the achieved laptimes were comparable.

[Rcz]

Consistent car
Consistent drivers
Consistent Team

They have it all right now.

[RWill2073]

Well, Maelochs summed it up perfectly. But just to put a punctuation on this:

Originally Posted by gert

I agree that if you run a less professional driver pairing you won't win.

Scratch off the 22 Esm, 52 PR1/Mathiessen and maybe the 85 JDC car then.

I agree that if you have bad pitstops you won't win.

Looking at you, Mazda.... Also, the 5 AXR Caddy nearly lost the podium because of a slow entrance to a pitstop...

I agree that if you are not as good in the pit stop you won't win.
I agree that if you don't make the right strategy calls you won't win.

Which teams do you trust of the prototype teams right now to make the best strategy decisions?

However, this is all far less important in a practice or qualifying session, and also there the Cadillacs are way faster than anything else.
Now that isn't right.

Practice 1:
1 Jordan Taylor 01:57.116
2 Joao Barbosa 01:57.193
3 Scott Sharp 01:57.300
4 Tristan Nunez 01:57.862
5 Dane Cameron 01:57.934

That's two non-caddy's ahead of a caddy, and within a second, with Sharp within two tenths of AXR.

Practice 2:
1 Jordan Taylor 01:56.595
2 Joao Barbosa 01:57.722
3 Misha Goikhberg 01:57.978
4 Dane Cameron 01:58.036

A non-caddy ahead of a caddy, and within two tenths of the non-Taylor caddy.

Practice 3:
1 Dane Cameron 01:56.117
2 Joao Barbosa 01:56.332
3 Misha Goikhberg 01:56.393
4 Scott Sharp 01:56.959
5 Johannes van Overbeek 01:57.052

Hmm... No Taylor Caddy here, and five cars within a second, a non-Caddy within two tenths, and it isn't the fastest non-Caddy, at that... pretty balanced to me...

Qualifying:
1 Jordan Taylor 01:54.809
2 Johannes van Overbeek 01:56.401
3 Dane Cameron 01:56.429
4 Joao Barbosa 01:56.655
5 Marco Bonanomi 01:56.884
6 Scott Sharp 01:56.988

That's an ESM outqualifying two of the three Caddy's. Second through sixth within half a second, and the sixth place ESM is with their slower driver. How much more balanced should they be? Should the AXR Caddy's get BOP to get on pace with the Taylor's?



With a correct BoP the other cars would be competitive, until the less experienced driver takes over; or the car fails because it always does; or the team makes the tactical error.

Race:
Taylor: 1.57.198
Cameron: 1.58.525
Barbosa: 1.58.048
Simpson: 1.57.851
Van Overbeek: 1.58.370
Dalziel: 1.57.809
Van Der Zande: 1.58.737

So, that's every session where a non-Cadillac outpaced a Cadillac or two.
By fastest race laps, it went WTR Caddy, ESM, JDC, AXR, ESM, AXR, VFR (who were still within 0.2 seconds of the AXR Caddy!) Two(!) ESM Nissans outpaced one of the Caddy's. What is unbalanced about any of this?

But not even that is happening.

Look above. Yes it is.

[gert]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

What is unbalanced about any of this?

Uhm, that there is never anything else than a Cadillac on top?

--

Do you honestly think if WTR were to swap their Caddilac for a Riley-Gibson, a Mazda or a Ligier-Gibson that would still be able to top the practice sessions and put the thing on pole?

If the cars are all equally balanced then the answer would be: Of course, they would.
Well, I think not.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by gert

Uhm, that there is never anything else than a Cadillac on top?

--

Do you honestly think if WTR were to swap their Caddilac for a Riley-Gibson, a Mazda or a Ligier-Gibson that would still be able to top the practice sessions and put the thing on pole?

If the cars are all equally balanced then the answer would be: Of course, they would.
Well, I think not.

Indycar is definitely "equally balanced" as they are all the same chassis (Dallara DW12). 'Only two different engines (Honda, Chevrolet).

The same Honda engined teams and the same Chevrolet engined teams run up front and the same run in the back.
Why do you think that is? What's your fix for that? When does it stop?

The cream rises to the top.

As it should in sport; as it should in life.

[gert]

That's not really a good comparison as you are comparing teams/drivers and not the cars then.

BTW: the two first races were won by a small team (Coyne) and a midfield team (Schmidt/Petersen)

I'm not saying BoP is a fair way to go racing, I don't even like it, but I strongly disagree when people say everything is perfectly balanced when it is the same car manufacturer that dominates almost every (not all) session at all the different racetracks so far.

F1 is also not balanced (and IMO there is no need to do so), but at least it doesn't pretend to be.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by gert

That's not really a good comparison as you are comparing teams/drivers and not the cars then.

BTW: the two first races were won by a small team (Coyne) and a midfield team (Schmidt/Petersen)

I'm not saying BoP is a fair way to go racing, I don't even like it, but I strongly disagree when people say everything is perfectly balanced when it is the same car manufacturer that dominates almost every (not all) session at all the different racetracks so far.

F1 is also not balanced (and IMO there is no need to do so), but at least it doesn't pretend to be.

Understood.

Solution: Follow another venue. That's what I do.
I just popped in here because I love all racing, 'just prefeer some over others. 'Am watchin, ARCA and IMSA as we type.....

[carbsmith]

I feel like some of the same people were trying to tell us how much better IMSA would be than other prototype championships are also the ones saying how BoP isn't a problem because actually all of the teams are just terrible.

Looking at even just the "Cadillac Cup" results it seems like Action Express wasn't particularly prepared for running an LMP2 car instead of a tube framer, while WTR is in the Indianapolis area where they can easily hire people from IndyCar and other high tech racing. I think you should probably expect ESM to be closer to WTR than AXR considering.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

I think you should probably expect ESM to be closer to WTR than AXR considering.

I am pretty disappointed in ESM ... as a fan I would much rather see them winning than any of the Cadillac teams.

They Should have the necessary funding. They have Ryan Dalziel who I put as one of the top-rank drivers in the series (in that bracket where saying "XX is better than YY" is meaningless because so much depends on car, team, and circumstance.) I don't think Dalziel on a good day gives anything away to any of the other top-rank drivers.

ESM though has never really nailed the prep and perform thing. They always seem a bit ragged. And this year they came in late and unprepared.

Obviously the Nissan has what it takes, if the crew can learn how to make it work and keep it from burning up.

As far as better than AXR? AXR won the championship three years running. They are a Good team. They pay attention to detail, don't make stupid errors, don't break down a lot. Attention to detail plus good drivers plus good engineers plus good crew.

I Wish ESM was as thorough as AXR.

[RWill2073]

Has Esm ever really been a top quality team? They're good, good enough to win. But I can't remember them ever being a great team.

To carbsmith: I also remember the same people saying a team that couldn't win in the wec being a top team in imsa was a sign of weakness for imsa now complaining that that same team should be competing but isn't proving up to it yet...

[Matt]

this thread is hilarious.

i love that one post thats saying that if the BoP works correctly then there'd be a different winner every round. that's just silly to think. what would that person say if every car was taken to la doux and balanced like a GT3 car, yet the same teams kept winning?

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Boring race on a boring track,tough to watch all the clear track limit violations and cars pushing eachother wide because they can.for the second race now The gtlm race has distroyed itself in the first lap giving the guaranteed win to corvette.really glad I decided to wait for the tape delay and enjoy my day with the wife and baby instead of chasing streams all morning.....

As for WTR,love to hate them but can't just because they are good,like the damn New England Patriots.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Has Esm ever really been a top quality team? They're good, good enough to win. But I can't remember them ever being a great team.

To carbsmith: I also remember the same people saying a team that couldn't win in the wec being a top team in imsa was a sign of weakness for imsa now complaining that that same team should be competing but isn't proving up to it yet...

They're still a top team in IMSA though, no matter how bad they might be.

[Joe Bernard]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

Boring race on a boring track,tough to watch all the clear track limit violations and cars pushing eachother wide because they can.for the second race now The gtlm race has distroyed itself in the first lap giving the guaranteed win to corvette.really glad I decided to wait for the tape delay and enjoy my day with the wife and baby instead of chasing streams all morning.....

As for WTR,love to hate them but can't just because they are good,like the damn New England Patriots.

Ugh, I hate this "track" with all the giant red and blue runoff areas. It has no character, and my understanding from last year is IMSA doesn't even bother to enforce track limits because they don't have the resources to keep up with it.

I don't follow WeatherTech closely enough to fully understand BoP, I just know that WTR looks like they're running in a different/faster class than the rest. It's pretty dull, and made more so by losing the Ganassi team to GTLM. I had high hopes for this new era in IMSA, but so far this season has been dreadful.

[canamman]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

Boring race on a boring track,tough to watch all the clear track limit violations and cars pushing eachother wide because they can.for the second race now The gtlm race has distroyed itself in the first lap giving the guaranteed win to corvette.really glad I decided to wait for the tape delay and enjoy my day with the wife and baby instead of chasing streams all morning.....

As for WTR,love to hate them but can't just because they are good,like the damn New England Patriots.

You would of thought that was a race in Saudi Arabia somewhere by the attendance. That date could be better used somewhere else.

[Matt]

If you don't want cars to use it, don't pave it.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by canamman

You would of thought that was a race in Saudi Arabia somewhere by the attendance. That date could be better used somewhere else.

S/B "would've" or "would have".

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Matt

If you don't want cars to use it, don't pave it.

Agreed. If they insist on tarmac for safety then it should be separated by a grass strip to stop abuse. The policing of track limits was worthless - cars were using the red tarmac everywhere, including over the apex of corners. COTA and Paul Ricard are the worst 2 circuits in the world for track limits, not only on exits but on apex as well.

It was probably made worse when you come from watching 6 hours at Spa and then immediately COTA starts. Not the best combination for IMSA this weekend. But the time will come when we get 6 hours of Bahrain or China with Road Atlanta straight afterwards, so it'll flip round too.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Matt

If you don't want cars to use it, don't pave it.

I agree wholeheartedly, but while bikes (particularly MotoGP) are an option at a circuit then this will never happen. Even the grass/gravel verge will be seen as too much (see Silverstone for a high-profile example). Laguna Seca gets away with it for its generally lower speeds and for having no space around the track to concrete over.

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by Matt

this thread is hilarious.

i love that one post thats saying that if the BoP works correctly then there'd be a different winner every round. that's just silly to think. what would that person say if every car was taken to la doux and balanced like a GT3 car, yet the same teams kept winning?

Isn't that what P class or the DPi subclass is supposed to be? A GT3 philosophy applied to prototypes?. To answer your question about the same teams winning I guess that would be in the manner if which the teams won. If a team pulls ahead and wins by alot due to strategy or setup, that's ok with me. If they win by alot due to not beating themselves, that's ok too. If one team kept winning but had competition on his butt and attempted to pass him say 20 times in the race but just couldn't get the angle, all fair game. Better drivers and/or consistency of the team, ok in my book, However if they win due to simply putting your foot down and letting the car ala Caddy at Daytona blow away all others, then that's a problem. Believe me I am no fan of BoP but I hate it when BoP rules the roost yet it is not doing it's job.

Now with that said...I agree with many points already noted: Cadillac dpi has the most testing. Among the cadillac teams WTR has the better drivers ergo they are the cream of the class. Also, in the IMSA P class, it's a combination of Pro-am teams vs Pro-pro which you can never balance.

That leaves me to say this: ESMs car has the potential to go toe-to-toe with the Caddies. The drivers with the exception of Ed Brown are no scrubs either. If by the middle of 2018 (plenty of time to get the car tested and sorted yeah?) the ESM is still not in the same class as the Cadillac, then my mind will be questioning the performance balancing ever more

[schmidder]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

They're still a top team in IMSA though, no matter how bad they might be.

IIRC, esm swept the enduro rounds or came close last year, as a part time entrant in a p2 car..pretty impressive. I'm not an esm fan boy or anything, just that the criticism here sometimes gets a bit rough....Mazda on the other hand....getting pretty lame during broadcasts go to the doonan minute and he just talks about how hard the team is working and then tells the audience to go test drive a cx5...hilarious. your cars are having electrical and other problems all weekend and you think that is a good time to ask for our business...rofl..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[TzeiTzei]

I think last year Oak Racing was involved in running the ESM team. Dont know what is going on now.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Matt

this thread is hilarious.

i love that one post thats saying that if the BoP works correctly then there'd be a different winner every round.

If you're referring to me, that's not what I said. I have repeated time and time again that I am mainly talking about practice and qualifying where team/driver/strategy/reliability weaknesses have far less influence on the result.
It is especially there that a perfect BoP would show variety in the results.

Originally Posted by Joe Bernard

Ugh, I hate this "track" with all the giant red and blue runoff areas. It has no character, and my understanding from last year is IMSA doesn't even bother to enforce track limits ...

Ah, we Europeans have Paul Ricard. That's even worse. And F1 has chosen THAT track to run the GP of France on.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

Isn't that what P class or the DPi subclass is supposed to be? A GT3 philosophy applied to prototypes?. To answer your question about the same teams winning I guess that would be in the manner if which the teams won. If a team pulls ahead and wins by alot due to strategy or setup, that's ok with me. If they win by alot due to not beating themselves, that's ok too. If one team kept winning but had competition on his butt and attempted to pass him say 20 times in the race but just couldn't get the angle, all fair game. Better drivers and/or consistency of the team, ok in my book, However if they win due to simply putting your foot down and letting the car ala Caddy at Daytona blow away all others, then that's a problem. Believe me I am no fan of BoP but I hate it when BoP rules the roost yet it is not doing it's job.

Now with that said...I agree with many points already noted: Cadillac dpi has the most testing. Among the cadillac teams WTR has the better drivers ergo they are the cream of the class. Also, in the IMSA P class, it's a combination of Pro-am teams vs Pro-pro which you can never balance.

That leaves me to say this: ESMs car has the potential to go toe-to-toe with the Caddies. The drivers with the exception of Ed Brown are no scrubs either. If by the middle of 2018 (plenty of time to get the car tested and sorted yeah?) the ESM is still not in the same class as the Cadillac, then my mind will be questioning the performance balancing ever more

IMSA doesn't take every car to a neutral track and have an independent driver lap them for two weeks every year though.