Audi LMP1 Discussion

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by FxL

Interesting indeed, thanks for posting

Indeed, that is a large difference!

[chernaudi]

Only way I can see Audi winning Spa right now is if their high downforce cars are better on their tires than Toyota and Porsche are. They need a more experienced hand in the #3 to get the best out of it.

The lap time is there, but nowadays, I'd rather be fast down the straights than in the corners, though to be fair, the LM spec Toyota last year struggled with it's tires and in traffic once the tires faded.

But then again, tomorrow will be cold, and that could be a saving grace for the low downforce Toyota and Porsche packages.

Audi are tons faster in sector 2, but it balances out in sectors 1&3.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Tomorrow is another day... but it indeed looks like it's going to be a tough day for Audi.

[chernaudi]

Best hope for Audi is that they're car is more consistent over a run and easier on their tires. We saw at Spa last year that the LM spec Toyota ate up it's tires basically after one stint.

Could this be like the R15 where Audi gambled on a ALMS-type downforce package that doesn't suit European tracks?

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Nice shots by Laurent Chauveau (endurance-info.com) allowing a comparison between the two aero packages run by Audi:

Wait a minute !... the all front section is different, larger in front for the LM spec... don't know how much of it is only skin cover, of there is direct understructure exposure and usage ( painted).

In the second case, they are clearly 2 different tubs (seems).. no matter if the red arrow fixage points, seems at the same distance.

[chernaudi]

In the press release, Audi stated that they ran the #3 on wet and intermediate tires most of the session due to wanting to save the car for the race and taking into account Marco's and Fil's lack of experience in a LMP1 car, though Marco has done much of the testing for Audi in past years.

Also, drivers said that more improvements were possible, but the track dried out too late for it to be of much use to them.

Tomorrow will be a tough race, though, unless Audi have a few cards up their sleeves. Being about 20km/h down on top speed due to running more downforce won't help, not unless Porsche and Toyota make big sacrifices in sector 2 where Audi are currently tons faster. But right now, they're making up for it in sectors 1 and 3 where top speed is a major help.

[hcl123]

me and my optimetrics! lol

Also the front panels ( Michelin doll) are not only retracted back, in average they are higher on the lowest point making the all front "entrance" above the front wing larger...and the front fenders are a tiny bit less wider too.

So the nose tip, should be a (may be) a little retracted back, attending the relative positions of the front panels( Michelin doll). meaning the nose is not so long, but since the in front of wheel fender section, as seen in another image seems a tiny bit larger in the LM spec, it may be the front suspension has a relative position different anchorage...

So the maybe the HDF front section spec in Spa could be different than in Silverstone... we'll be waiting lol





No matter the prespectives... but doesn't seem that the LM spec has a shorter nose... and so the distance between axles ( rear front) can be a little different to, attending the proportional distances in all front section

[MyNameIsNigel]

Couple of pictures of the rear end of the #3 Audi R18 have been released. The new exhaust outlets are really hard to spot, but they are there, located upstream of the trailing edge of the rear bodywork section:



Here is a picture of the sprint version for comparison:

[chernaudi]

I've been thinking looking at some videos of last year, and I'm wondering if Audi went for more downforce this year to try and milk more life out of their tires during a race.

We have to remember that post LM that there's a ton of tracks that are very abrasive on tires, and the last track last year where Audi or Toyota had much success with double stinting tires was COTA. Shanghai is hard on tires, Bahrain is hard on tires, and Interlagos is hard on tires.

High downforce cars tend to make better use of their tires and have better tire durability. For Spa, the track is more abasive than Silverstone, and unlike the past day, the sun should be out. And that means higher track temps and slicker race track.

It could be then that if Toyota or Porsche sacrifice any tire durability by running less downforce, it'll show then.

But that's just a theory on why Audi opted for more downforce than their competitors this year, to try and get an edge in cornering and also maybe tire wear.

[Spyderman]

Jani has confirmed that the Porsche struggles once the tires are no longer fresh. Audi fans take cheer.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Jani has confirmed that the Porsche struggles once the tires are no longer fresh. Audi fans take cheer.

But R18s still have 30km/h of top speed deficit so there's no way they are going to pass 919 and 040 apart from undercut in pitstops

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

But R18s still have 30km/h of top speed deficit so there's no way they are going to pass 919 and 040 apart from undercut in pitstops

He also says that both Audi and Toyota will be stronger than Porsche during the race.

Hear for yourself:http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/a...ce-soundbites/

[GT6]

Audi are doing OK at the moment they are not dropping back any further

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Couple of pictures of the rear end of the #3 Audi R18 have been released. The new exhaust outlets are really hard to spot, but they are there, located upstream of the trailing edge of the rear bodywork section:



Here is a picture of the sprint version for comparison:

ummm... the most logic position is in the centerline, also 2 exits, one each side that of central rear protuberance that has a pulling (? could be ) *red* hoop... the new trailing edge even has 2 small bulges one each side of this centerline piece. Instead of been upper in the engine cover, they are more down and are a little longer for better escape velocity ( diminishes back- pressures)

Also the rear brakes colling air intakes seem really gone from anywhere near their previous position... can't be on top because the mandatory openings are smaller and much less exposed to air pressure coming from front, due to their format.... leaves in the sides, perhaps close to red background number indication ( this case white number 3 on red background)

Correction: its the contrary(oh! my)... the the top fenders openings of the LM spec are almost the same size, but are more exposed to front air pressure, so the rear brakes air colling intakes could be this opening (some air steering format inside fender).

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

But R18s still have 30km/h of top speed deficit so there's no way they are going to pass 919 and 040 apart from undercut in pitstops

Funny ... that is truth and seems confirmed at Spa. No wonder since the Audi HDF cars are the same of Silverstone... but in http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/index.html "event maximum speed" the results for the LM spec Audi nº 3 doesn't appear lol

Hard to take any conclusion of improvements... yet even if it did appeared (nº3 max speed results on fiawec), would be not conclusive, because the nº3 run all time like in a test, with not a single top driver... matter of fact in race they managed to make 1 less pit stop with only 2 laps behind... very very promising, i think about fuel efficiency Audi got it, which is remarkable for ~11% less fuel tank with ~25% less fuel flow compared to same Audi in 2013... now takes translate some less of that, for much higher speed.

In any case Audi seems not have dropped the ball yet... give up or complain... what scientifically in numbers are quite a challenge and unfair to them... wonder what they are cooking !!

(from the outside, at least to me, the odds seems like a wall to climb with what they (Audi) are forced to have, free flows and fuel tanks, they would be kicking arse left and right, even in dreams, like in the time until 2011... and attending the HUGE HUGE improvement of the legacy motorized direct competition, and the big difference in Hybrid power... its amazing how much that diesel engine has evolved)

[deltawing]

Perfectly executed "phase 2" of Audi's master plan for LeMans victory!

Let Toyota win again (they would have let them win in Silverstone if they did not crash!), so they start thinking they got a really good car this year - sort of the "benchmark".

Run two cars with much higher DF (and make sure the low DF car never does anything noticeable/suspicious!). The high DF translates into unnecessary drag, which translates into very high rate fuel burn, which then will lead to "Phase 3" - in the next few days/weeks lobbying for more fuel, because as Dr. Ulrich said carefully yesterday ""Nous avons utilisé notre joker"..... ACO is going to give them extra fuel, because Toyota is so drunk by their success, they are not even going to protest, and that is going to be the biggest mistake they are going to make this year!

Audi is going to bring the low drag skins in 5 weeks on all 3 cars, armed with even more fuel, and for the first time this year everyone is painfully going to witness what the mighty diesel can really do! And before everyone realizes what is going on, they are going to wipe the competition and win LeMans, again! You can protest all you want on Monday, the game is done

[MyNameIsNigel]

During the race broadcast, there was a reasonably good shot at the new exhaust layout on the #3 Audi at the occasion of the 5th pitstop (lap 119), 4h14min into the race:



My apologies for the bad quality screen shots

[FxL]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

During the race broadcast, there was a reasonably good shot at the new exhaust layout on the #3 Audi at the occasion of the 5th pitstop (lap 119), 4h14min into the race [...]

Well, now the R18/Jet analogy which people bring up sometimes makes even more sense :-D

http://arcturus415.files.wordpress.c...b-2stealth.jpg

[hcl123]

oops!

...the odds seems like a wall to climb with what they (Audi) are forced to have, free flows and fuel tanks, they would be kicking arse left and right, even in dreams, like in the time until 2011...

Whatever your preferences are, please don't take that as a provocation to anyone (was emotional).

And "free" is not exactly correct, we wouldn't want whacky races with V(W)16s and much more than 1000hp in any motorization, LOL... i meant *EQUAL* flows and tanks independent of fuel , exactly how road cars are-> free flows & tank sizes at the wimp of the constructor... but ( there are ways to directly balance this) ... petrol will always have much more RPM no matter what, diesel will always have more torque per displacement no matter what...

So a better look at Fairness

10K RPM petrol (SI) 5K RPM diesel max (CI )... counterpointing... Petrol 3L displacement Diesel 6 L displacement max ("equal" total *max* amount of piston up and down displacement per RPM)

Can't think of better more **natural** equalization... turbo and hybrid "free", part of the "efficiency" package, or with caution 4 bar turbo max, hybrid release should be *free* but only in 1 MGU single motor per axle max -> i.e., as much MGUs you like, only 2 are traction .

In the end you could even have a single super precise main tank fuel pump with static ( no need monitoring) ~7% more max flow in favor of petrol due to specific energies of fuel... but fuel tank up to 90 L, and mandatory equal distance (nº laps) for refueling stops for everyone-> simulating what we encounter in the open road... if 90 L can give you 2 stints in a row go for it if you want...

More fuels could be allowed and respective pumps, like CNG or LPG ( if pass safety crash tests -> could have more specific energies than either petrol or diesel if properly engineered (liquefied methane is a rocket), either in compression ignition (CI) or spark ignition (SI) formats )...

No need a single penalty, all "equalization" is guarantied a priori, its kind of static not physically possible to overcome ( only the RPM and turbo pressure is needed to be monitored, but FIA once delivered the proper wastegates, the same could be for RPM, try to abuse, an automatic "cut" ensues.. cut not penalty..) ... can't think of anything more free, simple, FAIR, natural, equal... and i've repeated (uf !) this several times, so i think the picture is clear.

[hcl123]

Or is the color "black" of this part of the car that is playing a perfect camouflage trick... or the car in the image above and the image below don't have the same exhaust

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Perfectly executed "phase 2" of Audi's master plan for LeMans victory!

Let Toyota win again (they would have let them win in Silverstone if they did not crash!), so they start thinking they got a really good car this year - sort of the "benchmark".

Run two cars with much higher DF (and make sure the low DF car never does anything noticeable/suspicious!). The high DF translates into unnecessary drag, which translates into very high rate fuel burn, which then will lead to "Phase 3" - in the next few days/weeks lobbying for more fuel, because as Dr. Ulrich said carefully yesterday ""Nous avons utilisé notre joker"..... ACO is going to give them extra fuel, because Toyota is so drunk by their success, they are not even going to protest, and that is going to be the biggest mistake they are going to make this year!

Audi is going to bring the low drag skins in 5 weeks on all 3 cars, armed with even more fuel, and for the first time this year everyone is painfully going to witness what the mighty diesel can really do! And before everyone realizes what is going on, they are going to wipe the competition and win LeMans, again! You can protest all you want on Monday, the game is done

No. No, theyre not. There is no bop before Le Mans this year. Audi are stuck with what they have. They came in 2nd place today, they dont need help.

[hcl123]

Run two cars with much higher DF (and make sure the low DF car never does anything noticeable/suspicious!). The high DF translates into unnecessary drag, which translates into very high rate fuel burn, which then will lead to "Phase 3" - in the next few days/weeks lobbying for more fuel, because as Dr. Ulrich said carefully yesterday ""Nous avons utilisé notre joker"..... ACO is going to give them extra fuel, because Toyota is so drunk by their success, they are not even going to protest, and that is going to be the biggest mistake they are going to make this year!

Audi is going to bring the low drag skins in 5 weeks on all 3 cars, armed with even more fuel, and for the first time this year everyone is painfully going to witness what the mighty diesel can really do! And before everyone realizes what is going on, they are going to wipe the competition and win LeMans, again! You can protest all you want on Monday, the game is done

Yes for one thing i think there is still much tests going on... but what you are saying is serious, its a very serious gross anti-sportive behavior... doesn't seem Dr. Ulrich.

And more fuel ? ... only if FIA/ACO steps back a little on their *arbitrary* distorted fuel flows and tank capacity rules for diesel, a step for more fairness... which case Toyota has nothing to complain about, and nothing has to be secret.

Cold rationally, i also think diesel has clear advantage if "fair" is applied ( as in previous post)... but diesel tech can't make miracles or be a super hero that defeats everybody under any circumstances, that is a story for a cartoon ...

"Nous avons utilisé notre joker" ... can mean a lot of things, like the Nº 3 having 1 less pit stop than the others... about ACO giving them more fuel, do you have any confirmation ?

[deltawing]

Confirmation? Of course not! What I write is pure fruit of my thoughts and imagination no one has to agree with it.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by TF110

No. No, theyre not. There is no bop before Le Mans this year. Audi are stuck with what they have. They came in 2nd place today, they dont need help.

I'm not sure what you saw, but it was pretty obvious today that the R18 has a lot more to give and is being handicapped.

I know your pumped with Toyota's result so far and they deserve it, but if the R18 was allowed to go at its full potential, i'm sure the field would be in a lot of trouble...

[hcl123]

About previous post about fairness...

10K RPM petrol (SI) 5K RPM diesel max (CI )... counterpointing... Petrol 3L displacement Diesel 6 L displacement max ("equal" total *max* amount of piston up and down displacement per RPM)

Doesn't mean it has to be static in a single relation, it can have a infinite number of relations ( RPM vs displacement), and so be as free as is today

As example Toyota wants to keep the 3.7L engine... 30000/3.7 = 8108 RPM max limit (but any relation of RPM x displacement applies for the same 30K), turbo or not is up to them

Yet fuel flows have to be more ( F1 is 100kg/hour as is perfect)... less is diesel hanadicapping, that 6L diesel if a V12 (~1500Nm) at 5K RPM will be doing >1000hp lol... actual fuel flow don't allow anything near 1000 hp ... but if we cut the RPM x displacement for 25K, pretty much invalidates NA engines, by being totally fair, because the RPM would have to come sensibly lower

(who said motorsport has a search for fairness above all anyway LOL )

Originally Posted by deltawing

Confirmation? Of course not! What I write is pure fruit of my thoughts and imagination no one has to agree with it.

Audi already found more fuel... 6 pit stops at Spa, if tweaked even further, little less downforce -> a little more top speed, faster drivers, could mean at LeMans reasonable fast 12 laps per stint... probably they wont run in front all the time ( the fastest), but they could have a very serious shot at the win...

To run at the front is needed more RPM, so more fuel... or more displacement with just a little less RPM...

The 1th option is a sure ruin of this Spa nº 3 strategy, can be very fuel wasting even if matching Toyota or Porsche for top speeds is possible ( and it is)... the later they can't have it unless there is an engine overhaul playing with leaner regimes...

I don't think there will be a new engine... so is the 1th... depending on how much fast the competition is, if 10 or 11 laps per stint, but then Audi can match or surpass the speed, then for the first time this year Audi can be on their toes if not in front from the beginning... if Audi can't match the top speeds (very important in LM), then they will opt for the Spa nº 3 strategy ( can change during race, usually at night with colder air has shown to have an effect on Audi's diesel engines power -> 2013 was won at night).

Could this be the joker ? ... hardly anything magic !..