F5000

[gttouring]

I asked about this before, I love F5000 footage and that sound, the question remains however, What the heck was F5000 about and why?
Indy car championship went on in North america, F1 was around and these 2 series were still blinding fast.
Can -am was happening, so where did F5000 fit in?

[allenbrown]

How long an answer do you want?

This is tied into the history of road racing in North America following the war. Most people raced British sports cars, MGs and so on, but it proved difficult to get any 'Pro' racing started. Eentually, by the late 1950s, serious sports car racing had got established and this led on to the USRRC and then to Can-Am but attempts continued, especially through the FRA in California and through the SCCA to get single-seater road racing established. The FRA pushed for a 6-litre stock block series but nothing came of it.

The breakthrough was probably the start of Formula Vee in 1963 as that proved massively popular. The SCCA then decided to break up their existing category for libre and Formula Junior cars and create three new formulae - Formula A for 3-litre racing engines (after F1), Formula B for 1600cc engines (after F2) and an 1100cc Formula C. Formula A went nowhere, mainly because there were no suitable engines.

The SCCA pressed on and established a 'Pro' series for FA, FB and FC cars in 1967 and this was predictably dominated by British-built FB cars. So for 1968, the SCCA decided to let in the 5-litre stock block engines that were already developed for Trans-Am (their new and successful stock car series). Eagle and Lola built cars for this revised Formula A and it took off.

In Britain, we lacked a serious senior domestic series and decided to adopt Formula A, calling it F5000. We later adopted Formula B too, under the Formula Atlantic name. The SCCA later adopted the Formula 5000 name too.

Does that help.

Allen

[Vitesse]

The 6-litre series Allan refers to was to have been called Formula 366 - it was for 366ci/6.0 litre stock blocks and 183ci/3.0 litre racing engines. However, it was killed off even before it started by the legislators whose restrictions meant that the stock blocks wouldn't be able to get much more than 230bhp as against the 265bhp from the bored-out Climax engines already running in the short-lived Intercontinental Formula in Europe. The rear-engined Scarab, with purpose-built 3.0 litre engine based on a Buick block, was constructed to conform to F366, but only raced once, in a Formule Libre race at Sandown in Australia in March 1962. By that time Intercontinental had collapsed too, so the Scarab was a solution looking for a problem! It would be another 6 years before Formula A really took off ...

It's often overlooked that there was a 3.0 litre racing engine option in F5000 too, although it wasn't often used: John Cannon was the most notable exponent.

[gttouring]

Wow- I needed that
so why did F5000/FA die out?
did Indy swalloe it up, and did F1 out muscle and out glamourise it?
it seems a stock block single seater formula (you could build at home i take it) would be one of the great series out there, Formula Vee and Formual Ford still are strong...

[allenbrown]

The SCCA missed Can-Am, which had died out in 1974 and the fans and organisers were getting bored with F5000. So the SCCA decided to slap sports car bodies on the F5000 cars and call it Can-Am. It carried on until 1987 by which time the world had moved on and 'spec racing' was the future of formula racing.

Allen

[D-Type]

Formula 5000 became a sort of Formula 1 1/2 as the gap from F2 to F1 was too big, but I feel that Formula Atlantic did more harm than good. It was somewhere between Formula 2 and Formula 3 and consequently destroyed the logical progression in single seater racing of
F3 -> F2 -> (F5000) -> F1.
I suppose the US idea was similar
FC -> FB (Atlantic) -> FA (F5000) -> Indycar, champcar, CART or whatever you want to call it.
In both cases you had the feeder formulae - F Ford, Formula Vee, Formula Renault, Formula 4, etc. At the bottom end it didn't matter that there were sevewral, but up the way it did.
This is omething we still haven't got right - unfortunately in promotional terms it's Formula ! plus crumbs for the rest.
End of rant

[Peter Mallett]

I remeber David Purley campaigning a Ford GAA (3.4 litre) engined car in 1976 (ish).

[gttouring]

so what's the hope of the new training series for CART to become an f5000? as everyone knows Toyota atlantics are woefully underpowered and over winged- so shouldn't Toyota stick the 4.3-5.0 litre v8's in the back and race 'em.

[Armco Bender]

That would be ironic,Formula Atlantic replaced F5000 here.
Like most Formula costs killed of F5000 here,got down to only 2 or 3 competitive cars turning up at meetings.The last F5000 series in 1976 here got down to plain embarassing some races with only a few cars trundling around.But Atlantics died here too,Formula Ford is now the Premier open wheeler class,few more years they will down to go-karts.

[gttouring]

formula ford should be the premier OpenWheel class, as it is now called FF2.65T- ChampCars

[skycafe]

The US sponsor for F5000 also pulled out, leaving the series high and dry. There were efforts to keep it going, but in meetings with the promotors and SCCA, there was the thought that what was needed was to bring back sports cars and the name CanAm; hence F5000 cars with fenders. I might add that these took flight at the first several races as the bodywork package and aero were worked out.

There was also discussion prior to this of USAC going to a stock block formula and adding road courses. The thought was to use F5000 type cars. That fell through but CART came about a couple of years later.

Formula C in the US always had some challenges as it was always only club level. It was expensive and under supported. The screaming cosworth MAEs (I think that is what they were) were just too expensive. Funny, now you would use bike engines, which I see is pretty popular in UK.

[Dan Rear]

Peter Mallett,

Yes David Purley raced that lovely Chevron B30 in UK F5000 1975, and won the series, by then Gp8, with it in 76. Very fast it was too. A few other GA 3.4 litre F5000s ran in those years, and were at least as fast/noisy/spectacular (IMHO) as the proper F5000s. By then though I think it was too late for the formula generally.

[Teretonga]

Armco Bender
Given your comment about karts being the national single seater class your signature is quite ironic. A 'Silver Arrow'is a kart manufactured by DPE in Australia around 1999-2000...

[flatlander_48]

Formula A/5000 was a poor man's F-1.

[ascarracinguk]

YEH BUT U GOTTA LOVE THE CARS!!!!

[Amonfan]

I can't wait for Sandown in Novemeber, for the Tasman Challenge, apparently 14 Kiwi F5000s, plus about 6 from Oz, mixed in with some Ralt's, Marches and Chevrons, should be great

[Dan Rear]

Amonfan

Looking forward to your report/details on the Tasman Challenge, sounds fantastic !!

Dan

[gttouring]

post it back here and get pics!

[Peter Mallett]

Dan.

Was it Purley who also raced at the '75 Thruxton round with a broken leg? Or Ian Ashley? For some reason those two names come to mind.

[Bob Riebe]

The best I remember, Aust.-New Zealand were the last place F5000 cars ran. The gent who built the Elfin cars built what was the most radical F5000 ever just before he was killed, racing or testing I believe.

[Bob Riebe]

As Tony George has taken Indy cars to whatever formula they are now instead of the stock-block he said he would, the market for a new f5000 is ripe. The quad-cam Ford could race against the new Chevrolet and Dodge push-rod engines with a eq. formula as used in the original F5000 series.
With the Ford at the old USAC 256 OHC size and the push-rod engines at old USAC 355 size, these engines could put out an easy 700 some horse power in a mild state of tune.
One thing that killed the old US series was no one beside Chevy ever put much of an effort into it. Ford pulled out of racing and Dodge did not get in until the very end(Plymouth ran a few races in 1969).
DFV engines won two races, Ford Boss engines won two and Dodge one.
When Penske ran the AMC it was only a half-hearted effort.
Frank Matich also won one race with a Holden engine.
The series actually peaked in 1969 and started a slow descent from there.
Bob

[allenbrown]

Bob

Your US winners are spot on - Chev won the other 87! In Tasman F5000, Chev won 35, Repco Holden 9, Ferrari one and Waggott one.

I would have said the series hit another peak in 1972 and the Andretti-Redman battles also saw a peak, notably the 1974 Watkins Glen round.

Allen

[Vitesse]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Dan.

Was it Purley who also raced at the '75 Thruxton round with a broken leg? Or Ian Ashley? For some reason those two names come to mind.

Ian Ashley broke his ankle in a crash at the Nurburgring and drove the rest of the season with a steel pin in it (John Player Yearbook 1976, page 151).

[Dan Rear]

What was Ashley driving at the 'Ring, was he in F1 ?

Dan

[Jeremy Jackson]

Dan,

Ashley crashed a Williams in practice for the 1975 GP.