[Official] Canadian Grand Prix 2018: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

How on Earth could race control confirm it was the last lap, when it wasn't?

This article popped up on motosport.com 15 minutes ago. Explains it much better.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...arlow-1045612/


This sentence from Charlie Whiting has me worried.

"My advice to anyone who asked was that they should just complete the race, to be sure."


No way should the teams have been told to continue racing "to be sure". That was a disaster that was fortunately avoided.

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Well that was a short race for Hartley...

Courtesy of the son of Tommy Hilfiger!

[S griffin]

Well that was unfortunately uneventful race. Only the first corner clash with Stoll and Hartley and the one between Sainz and Checo were of note. There were some examples of cars closing up on another one, but not enough.

Not the first time a celebrity has messed up with the chequeured flag, remember Pele missing the winner in Brazil?

[GregUK]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

This sentence from Charlie Whiting has me worried.

"My advice to anyone who asked was that they should just complete the race, to be sure."

No way should the teams have been told to continue racing "to be sure". That was a disaster that was fortunately avoided.

That's appalling!

Once the chequered has been shown (to any car), the race is over.

Vettel was right to be concerned by the possibility of personnel on the track.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Courtesy of the son of Tommy Hilfiger!

That was a 50/50 incident. Stroll lost the rear a little and touched Hartley, but what the hell was Hartley doing on the outside of turn 5!?? Not only did he put his car in there, I actually think he thought he could overtake Stoll there!!?? There was no chance of that happening at that point on the track. Dumb move.


I say 50/50 incident. But if I was to put majority blame on someone it would be Hartley for sure. Should have never put himself in that position. Way too risky for someone in his position.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Well that was unfortunately uneventful race. Only the first corner clash with Stoll and Hartley and the one between Sainz and Checo were of note. There were some examples of cars closing up on another one, but not enough.

Not the first time a celebrity has messed up with the chequeured flag, remember Pele missing the winner in Brazil?

Except, she wasn't the one who messed up (as already mentioned, in this very thread, a few posts earlier):

"The chequered flag was shown a lap early because of a miscommunication with the guy that they call the starter here, who starts and finishes the races," said Whiting.

"He thought it was the last lap, he asked race control to confirm it, they confirmed it, but they thought he was making a statement when he was asking a question.

"He just showed it a lap early, or he told the flag waver to show it a lap early, so it wasn't anything to do with the fact that it was a celebrity flag waver."

Whiting believes that the starter was misled by the TV graphic that notes the lap that the leader is on, rather than laps completed - which is what happened in a similar situation in China in 2014.

Source: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...error-happened

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

That was a 50/50 incident. Stroll lost the rear a little and touched Hartley, but what the hell was Hartley doing on the outside of turn 5!?? Not only did he put his car in there, I actually think he thought he could overtake Stoll there!!?? There was no chance of that happening at that point on the track. Dumb move.





I say 50/50 incident. But if I was to put majority blame on someone it would be Hartley for sure. Should have never put himself in that position. Way too risky for someone in his position.

Really? There was nothing wrong with him going around the outside there, as he would have had the inside for the next corner. He was just unfortunate that Stroll lost it there. Nothing wrong with what Hartley did there

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Really?

[S griffin]

That doesn’t prove anything

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

How on Earth could race control confirm it was the last lap, when it wasn't? It's not as if lap timing and scoring is done by someone with a clip board and a stop watch anymore.

I spoiled myself by reading race results here before watching the race (which was so boring I fast forwarded through most all of it), but I paid attention to the last few laps to catch the checkered issue. They didn’t show the flag stand on laps, 68 or 69, but the graphics did show it was lap 70 of 70 when they showed the stand and she started to wave the flag. So as best as I can tell, she waved it early, but on the last lap. I think Vettle was elsewhere and saw the flag being waved on the trackside big screens and asked the team on the radio to confirm that he really was on the last lap (I.e. I didn’t miss taking the checkered flag did I?). As Vettle finished his last lap, the flag was back into the hands of a race official and waved at the race leader, then a later shot had it back in her hands as the remainder of the field took the flag. I blame the official on the flag stand for the screw up.

Late edit... I read reports they declared results as of lap 68. So if she waved it that early, either I missed it, or they didn’t show it on the US broadcast.

Richard

[grantp]

Liberty should consider the potential for adding some excitement to the meeting based on the idea of a celebrity being asked to wave the chequered flag.


Give the celeb the option to end the race whenever they choose. Now that should get the strategy teams earning their money as they work out, race by race, the psychology of the celeb involved and at what point they might want to feel a need to end the action (or inaction depending on the track.)


Better yet, have a number of possible flag waving celebs lined up and only pick the one to be used after the first 10 laps. That should keep the computers warm.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Late edit... I read reports they declared results as of lap 68. So if she waved it that early, either I missed it, or they didn’t show it on the US broadcast.

Apologies for quoting myself...

Apparently the rule states if there is confusion like this, they use the position as of two laps prior. So confusion on lap 70, results are then set as of lap 68. So I assume the world feed video didn’t miss anything in that she waved early on the last lap.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

This article popped up on motosport.com 15 minutes ago. Explains it much better.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...arlow-1045612/


This sentence from Charlie Whiting has me worried.

"My advice to anyone who asked was that they should just complete the race, to be sure."


No way should the teams have been told to continue racing "to be sure". That was a disaster that was fortunately avoided.

In that article it says: "Whiting believes that the starter was misled by the TV graphic that notes the lap that the leader is on, rather than laps completed".

That begs the question, why was the starter relying on the the TV graphic, rather than race control? Sounds like a bit of buck passing is going on.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That doesn’t prove anything

Didn't you get the message - Memes decide everything now, based on internet popularity!!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That doesn’t prove anything

Agreed. Here is the Stroll/Hartley crash.

https://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU

[loon]

Originally Posted by grantp

Liberty should consider the potential for adding some excitement to the meeting based on the idea of a celebrity being asked to wave the chequered flag.


Give the celeb the option to end the race whenever they choose. Now that should get the strategy teams earning their money as they work out, race by race, the psychology of the celeb involved and at what point they might want to feel a need to end the action (or inaction depending on the track.)


Better yet, have a number of possible flag waving celebs lined up and only pick the one to be used after the first 10 laps. That should keep the computers warm.

Now this really is a great idea and a good indicator of things to come, hell Radio 5live even managed to interview Russell Wilsons wife on the grid!!

[Akrapovic]

Stroll drives into another car, and the other car is partly to blame simply for existing.

Max didn't actually crash at Monaco. The wall simply got in the way. True fact - I read it on a meme.

[gert]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

In that article it says: "Whiting believes that the starter was misled by the TV graphic that notes the lap that the leader is on, rather than laps completed".

That begs the question, why was the starter relying on the the TV graphic, rather than race control? Sounds like a bit of buck passing is going on.

I find that explanation hard to believe. If the TV graphics show they are ON lap 70 (of 70) then that means 69 laps have been completed.
It will only show they are ON the 70th lap once the race leader (Vettel) has completed his 69th.

To show it early would mean they showed it after the 69th lap instead of the 70th, and that would mean the laps completed counter was still on 68.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by gert

I find that explanation hard to believe. If the TV graphics show they are ON lap 70 (of 70) then that means 69 laps have been completed.
It will only show they are ON the 70th lap once the race leader (Vettel) has completed his 69th.

To show it early would mean they showed it after the 69th lap instead of the 70th, and that would mean the laps completed counter was still on 68.

I think there was an issue with the TV Graphics. In the link here, you can see the flag being waved and the graphic shows 70/70. Vettel still has one more lap to complete though....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gert

I find that explanation hard to believe. If the TV graphics show they are ON lap 70 (of 70) then that means 69 laps have been completed.
It will only show they are ON the 70th lap once the race leader (Vettel) has completed his 69th.

To show it early would mean they showed it after the 69th lap instead of the 70th, and that would mean the laps completed counter was still on 68.

The official result shows the race ending on Lap 68.

https://www.formula1.com/en/results....85/canada.html

[chillibowl]

bit late to the party...bit it really wasnt much of a party was it!

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I spoiled myself by reading race results here before watching the race (which was so boring I fast forwarded through most all of it)

sums up how i watched it as well. honestly, weather was way too nice to spend much more time on it.

as for the early flag...a sad controversy made worse by virtue of having no discernible effect on the proceeding.

next time try for a later flag. a couple of extra laps when dirvers actually push and might just run out of fuel.

perhaps a soccer/football overtime situation where the ref estimates how much extra time is needed and then surprisingly blows the whistle.

keep us all guessing during these nil nil affairs.

Originally Posted by F1Guy

I don't think it was all aero for the lack of overtaking in Canada. Being one of the fastest tracks, everyone was in fuel saving mode, and also tyre saving mode. So blaming the aero is not the complete answer....

...The fact that the drivers almost always can easily push for the fastest lap on the final lap annoys me to no end. It just shows what was possible all along if they didn't have to save fuel and tyres.

agreed there. Pirelli got the selection a bit wrong here but even then...engine and fuel savings make for dull affairs.

also agree that its a bit of salt in the wound to see fast laps at the end. sure its easier but would like to see more of that fire throughout the race as well.

Originally Posted by F1Guy

That was a 50/50 incident...

agreeing with F1Guy again.

two middling drivers getting in each others way.

to be honest, i suspect that both would have still found the wall there even if the the other was not there!

did Stroll receive contact in turn 4? did he leave room for BH? why was BH looking for the gap between a Stroll and a wall? did BH hit the wall even before Stroll squeezed him into it?

classic 50/50 from 2 drivers with very little going for them at the moment.

glad Hartley is ok though.

[Akrapovic]

I don't understand how BH can be given any blame. Literally, the accident happened because Stroll got loose. He originally said he had a puncture on the radio, but then afterwards said the car snapped sideways. Unless there's a third statement saying he was hit from behind, I don't see how it's anyones fault but Strolls.

Watch it from BHs onboard. There was no contact between the cars. BH was alongside and had room. Stroll snaps sideways and was on the way to the wall, with or without BH.

That accident was happening whether BH was there or not. He was just unlucky enough to exist at the point where Stroll was having his accident.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Apparently the rule states if there is confusion like this, they use the position as of two laps prior. So confusion on lap 70, results are then set as of lap 68. So I assume the world feed video didn’t miss anything in that she waved early on the last lap.

After posting the above, I actually looked up the regulation which is 43.2 of the sporting regulation. Pertinate part is...

Should for any reason the end-of-race signal be given before the leading car completes the scheduled number of laps, or the prescribed time has been completed, the race will be deemed to have finished when the leading car last crossed the Line before the signal was given.

Note, it says position is used from the previous lap (not two laps prior as I said above)

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

In that article it says: "Whiting believes that the starter was misled by the TV graphic that notes the lap that the leader is on, rather than laps completed".

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think there was an issue with the TV Graphics. In the link here, you can see the flag being waved and the graphic shows 70/70. Vettel still has one more lap to complete though....

Originally Posted by gert

I find that explanation hard to believe. If the TV graphics show they are ON lap 70 (of 70) then that means 69 laps have been completed.
It will only show they are ON the 70th lap once the race leader (Vettel) has completed his 69th.

To show it early would mean they showed it after the 69th lap instead of the 70th, and that would mean the laps completed counter was still on 68.

Sorry for multiple quotes, but I am trying to address everything everyone brought up...

I actually don't think there was a problem with the screen graphics. Based upon watching the race, when I saw that same video shown above (graphic says "70/70" and she is waving checker), Vettel "was" on lap 70. I think the problem is that they cut to flag stand with her waving "after" Vettel had passed and started lap 70. The graphic was correct.

What probably happened, but was not shown on the live feed, is that she waved the flag to Vettel as he completed lap 69 and started lap 70. Which is why race results were set at lap 68. So when Vettel called in to ask why the checked flag was out, it was probably because he was "shown" the checkered flag at the end of lap 69 and not that he saw it on one of the big screens as speculated by the broadcast team.

As called out above by gert, this puts into question some of what Charlie is saying regarding how it happened. If it happened as Charlie says, then the results would have been as of lap 69 instead of 68. Regardless of "how" it happened, they showed the flag one lap early.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't understand how BH can be given any blame...

quite easily given that both are struggling a great deal at the moment with BH less secure in his seat than Stroll is with his money.

two drivers with everything to prove so the whole thing smacked of desperation to me.

difficult to say (even great drivers make mistakes in the heat of the moment), but would a more experienced driver have made that attempt on the inside there with so much of the race left to race?

so my serious answer would be that BH does deserve some of the blame for putting his car into a situation where either the laws of physics or the laws of reality dont apply in that his only hope was that Stroll could maintain enough car control to leave both of them enough room.

of course its easy for me to nitpick a split second decision from the comfort of my couch!

[Akrapovic]

It's easy to blame BH because his job is on the line. But that's not really being honest about the incident is it? That's just going with the flow of things, and tbh - being on a bandwagon.

I think it's seriously clutching at straws to say "his only hope was that Stroll could maintain enough car control to leave both of them enough room". This logic applies to every pass ever made. Every single overtake in any motorsport requires the driver being overtaken to not crash his car into the other one.

Also "so much of the race left". Well with overtaking as difficult as it is in F1 (and as difficult as it proved in Montreal), a real racer would take any chance they would get to make a pass rather than say "maybe it'll come up later".

The accident literally would not have happened had Stroll not run out of talent. From Strolls point of view, he was not hit, he did not have a puncture, and the fact another car was alongside him didn't matter. He ran out of talent and was on his way to the wall and just happened to collect BH on the way there.

From BHs point of view, he left Stroll room, was not on his way to an accident and was setting himself up to be on the inside for the next corner. Literally, the only thing that would've stopped it working was Stroll running out of talent at that very moment...and that's what happened. You cannot decide to not make passes just in case the driver you're passing has a crash.

If BH is at fault for simply being near to Stroll when Stroll decided to have an accident, then I think we need to re-evaluate our opinion of Maldonado. It wasn't his fault that everybody just happened to be near him when he was having crashes! And that guy Grosjean - others should just avoid crashing into him whilst he's spinning wildly across the track. He can hardly be blamed for others not avoiding his antics! It's a strange day in motorsport when the guy getting caught in someone else's accident is just as much to blame as the guy who caused it, literally, on his own.