Abortive Grand Prix projects

[angst]

Does anybody have any information on the might have beens of Grand Prix racing?
I'm thinking of things like the Itala of 1926, the FIAT 451 of 1926, the Alvis and Flatirons, the BRM P203 ground effect, the Alfa Romeo 162, the Gordini/Alpine Renault sportscar engined car that Renault scrapped when they found out about it.
But also anything that anybody may know about Maserati's plans (they apparently built a V12 1.5l car in '65, and were looking to replace the 3.0 V12 with something a bit more up to date). Did Porsche ever conside using their F8 3.0? Did Mercedes have any plans before coming back with Sauber? Did Alfa plan anything before supplying engines to Brabham?
Or do you know how to find out?

[EERO]

In 1970, Alfa supplied a 3.0 Liter V8 from the Tipo 33 sports car to McLaren for Andrea De Adamich, in 1971, they cut the same deal with March, scoring no points in either attempt. The Alfa flat 12 appeared in '76.

Recently, there have been several attempts to get something off the ground. Wasn't DAMS kicking around the notion of entering F1?

I also recall that there was much talk of Dan Gurney bringing the Eagle back to F1 in the mid-seventies but that never "took off."

[Truckosaurus]

I believe Subaru, of all people, built a prototype flat-12 F1 engine before decided their future lay in rallying...

There is information on the project on the www somewhere if anyone is interested.

[Speed Demon]

Yes indeed, DAMS did have plans to go GP racing and even went as far as building a chassis for it. I think it was in about 1995 and got as far as the testing stage. I have pictures of it somewhere... It was a rather slab-sided looking affair, which instantly looked uncompetitive (think of Lola's last attempt and you'll be getting there). I imagine it used a Ford Cosworth engine and, if my failing memory serves correct, it was test driven a few times by Eric Comas.

DAMS was not the only recent team that has tried - and failed - to enter F1 and got as far as building and testing a car. The Japanese Dome team, which builds and runs all sorts of touring and sportscars (including a Group C prototype for the Toyota factory in the mid-eighties), built and tested several F1 cars in the mid-ninties. This followed on from their successful Japanese F3000 cars and was powered by a Mugen-Honda engine. Testing was conducted entirely in Japan, firstly by Marco Apicella (who was their F3000 driver at the time) and then a succession of Japanese single-seater stars.

The car itself looked a neat package, with a contemporary high-nose, looking not dissimilar to a 1995 Williams. Some sponsorship was carried, although the car was all white with a yellow stripe. Sadly, a full budget could not be raised, and nothing came of the project.

I believe the Subaru project you refer to got as far as the testing stage also, in conjunction with the Coloni team, but proved uncompetitive. Naoki Hattori was due to be the driver - and indeed failed to qualify for two races in 1991 in a Cosworth-powered Coloni - before the FIA comntroversialy said he had no superlicenece.

[EERO]

Speed, thanks for the "Dome" info, I had vaguely remembered the reports but for the life of me could not remember the name of the team.

[chunder]

Alfa built a four cylinder turbo engine in the late eighties that Ligier were going to use. All was going well until Rene Arnoux drove the car and called the engine a pile of rubbish. Alfa got the hots and ran away leaving Megatron to fill the breach.
Does everybody remember the abortive Ford V12 of the late eighties aswell.
I also believe that Motori Moderni were the instigators of the Subaru project or it could have been something to do with the Life W12 project, I don't know.

[marcus]

sorry Ive come late to this topic but the Subaru project did actually make to Grand prix...in 1990 with the Coloni team and Bertrand Gachot driving..they attended the first 8 races with this engine never making it past pre qualifying before reverting to the trusty Ford DFR but not doing any better.


the DAMS car I believe was tested by Allan Mcnish..but i dont know much more about than that..or maybe that was Lola Im not sure now.

there was also a plan for a team called "First" in 88 or 89..the driver was due to be Gabriele Tarquini but some strange happenings went on and the team never got off the ground..I believe it was to be financed by a Mexican businessman but when the team was all ready to get the money in place the businessman strangely dissapeared never to be heard of again.

[angst]

FIRST racing, run by ex F1,F2, F3000 racer Lamberto Leoni built a car to be powered by Judd V8 with Apicella as driver, I believe. As you say the finances went tits-up and the project had to be dropped. The chassis was used by LIFE for their woeful W12 project. I seem to remember that Subaru did appear with their Motori-Moderni F12 with Coloni, and that was a terrible failure aswell.
How many cars have Honda built that never raced? I know they had the 'Postlethwaite' car, and before that the V12 around '92.
Does anybody know much about the Alpine-Renault in '69? Or the Maserati V12 1.5l, and subsequent plans for replacement engines for the big lump that Cooper used? Oh, and how close were Mercedes to returning in '66 (I'm sure I remember reading that quite a bit of work was done regarding this, but I may be mistaken)?

[Speed Demon]

Alpine-Renault built two F1 cars that were never raced. The first, tested in 1968 by Mauro Bianchi, was a conventional machine with a 3-litre V-8 and Hewland gearbox, apparantly built without the full authority or agreement of team owner Jean Redele. By 1974 the company was saved from extinction by a complete Renault takeover and was used as the Regie's competition and development arm. The second of it's unraced F1 cars was thus the A500 'Laboratoire' forerunner of the Renault turbocharged cars. A monocoque car designed by Andre de Cortanze, it was a neat car with clean lines, using the suspension layout from the A442 sports-racing car, as well as the turbo engine. Extensive tests were run at French circuits, and at Jarama, in 1976.

[angst]

Thanks for that info Speed Demon. Where did you find that out?

[Speed Demon]

Ah well, I could remain enigmatic and say that it's alled stored neatly away in the recesses of my memory.

However, that would be a whopping big lie! It's from a book - the A-Z of Formula Racing Cars, 1945-1990, by David Hodges.

[Speed Demon]

I've also just remembered where I put some info on the Honda F1 cars. Built in 1992, they were a serious design study, built 'after hours' by Honda's technical staff. Three chassis were tested - type numbers RC100, RC101, RC101B, powered by Honda's RA122E V12 engine - but were never intended as race cars.

[robert2000]

Didn't McLaren test Chrysler engines at the end of 1993? I can't remember much more about it though.

[marcus]

Im not sure if McLaren did test the Lamborghini engines or not in 93..but I do know they were planning to and at one stage were prepared to enter a third car with lambo power at the Adelaide GP for Mika Hakkinen..who at the time that was announced hadnt taken over from michael Andretti..I would have liked to see how the lambo engine went in a pretty good team as I think it wasnt that bad of an engine.

[Speed Demon]

I recall an article in the news section of Motor Sport in mid to late '93 which had a picture of Hakkinen testing an all-white Chrysler powered MP4/8. This was simply the re-badged Lambo engine. They were evaluating whether to strike up a deal for '94 before finally plumping for Peugeot.

I don't believe the rumour about a third McLaren for Oz, though. Wasn't the two cars per team limitation already in place by then?

[marcus]

I dont know if the rule was up and running then ..but if you think back the Lola team (speaking of abortive Gp projects) pulled out of racing after the portugese GP leaving the grid with only 24 cars..the rumor that I heard was that McLaren were looking at running a 3rd car along with the Tyrrell team using a japanese driver of some description because of the Yamaha engines they were using at the time..

probably would never have happened but thats what was being said here on Australian TV at the time.

[Speed Demon]

Just seen a pic of Senna driving the McLaren-Chrysler, in plain red and white livery with no logos. It would be interesting to find out what he made of it. Anyone see any press reports at the time?

[Marco94]

Well, I don't recall seeing red and white on the cars while it had the Chrysler engine in it, but Senna was _a lot_ faster then with the Ford engine. He was probably trying to freeze hell in order to get this engine for the final races. Of course that was not needed, even with the Ford engine he trashed everybody in Japan and Australia.

Marco.

[abarsby]

Okay, i'm 3 months late replying to this thread.

Regarding the BRM P230 "Wing Car", there's an interesting site at:-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/monzagt/BRMF1.html
regarding the self same car.

Though if anyone can find a picture of the P230 then they're doing well !

Also, Tony Rudd pioneered the concept in the 1960's, full scale mockups were built in Bourne, only for John Surtees to (allegedly(- veto the idea in a fit of prima dona foot stamping, demanding the team spend their resources on improving reliability. (Hey it wouldn't be a BRM if it had reliability !)

Andy Barsby

[KA]

The Subaru-Motori-Moderni flat-12 also turned up in an Alba sportscar in the World Sportscar Championship in 1990- it wasn't much use in that form either, and by late-season the team had ditched it in favour of a Buick V6 which although underpowered at least worked.....

I've got a feeling that McLaren tested the Lamborghini V12 at Silverstone in Sept '93- I was there for the last round of the BTCC on the Club circuit, & McLaren were testing on the South Circuit- I'm pretty sure they had 2 cars there, one plain white, and one regular Marlboro liveried, although we were too far away to see clearly.
There was a short break in the race programme, during which the organisers had somehow arranged for Hakkinen to do a couple of demonstration laps in the regular car

[badoer fan]

I have a vague memory of somewhere (possibly in Autosport) of reading about a 'Bravo' team, and Jordi Gene was due to be the driver, in about 1993.
I'll try and find something about this 2night

[Speed Demon]

I also seem to remember vaguely something about this - although it was only a couple of seasons ago. An all-Spanish team was supposedly being set up (it had nothing to do with the ill-fated Telefonica Minardi deal) but nothing more was heard of it.

[badoer fan]

I found it last night
"He [Jordi Gene] was involved in still-born F1 project Bravo, in 1993, prior to his Benetton testing role"
I didn't know about the all-Spanish thing though

[Neil C]

This thread jogged my memory of an attempt by someone (British, no doubt) to run a 6-wheeler after the limited success of the Tyrell in the late 70's. The difference being that the extra pair of wheels were in the rear!

Anyone recall details?

[chunder]

Yep the team was Williams. THe car I think was a FW07 or 08. About the time Rosberg and Laffite were driving.
THe car in the hands of Jonathan Palmer held the hill record at Goodwood for some time and is either on display at Donington or at the Williams factory.