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Old 8 Feb 2019, 16:04 (Ref:3882653)   #6301
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 16:49 (Ref:3883582)   #6302
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Old 17 Feb 2019, 17:58 (Ref:3884833)   #6303
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Old 21 Feb 2019, 07:40 (Ref:3885689)   #6304
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http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...nge-afoot.html

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There has been much natter, some positive and some negative, about the current situation regarding the upcoming 2020 ‘Hypercar’ regulations (which is planned to replace LMP1).

It appears that progress is still being made, though in the absence of much in the way of major programme announcements paddock and public concerns are being voiced more readily.

DSC understands that the latest moves came at a regular technical working group meeting this week in Paris between the ACO and prospective manufacturer (and other) entrants (with the majority of parties taking part remotely) to continue the dialogue about the intentions of the new regulations and their ultimate shape.

The parties involved, DSC understands, are currently working on what could be “major philosophical changes” to the initially released proposals – the emphasis still on bonding the need for hugely reduced budgets, with relevant technology and manufacturer styling relevance.

DSC has spoken to sources from a number of parties involved in the discussion, the vast majority of whom are positive about obtaining meaningful results.

The meeting this week is not due to prompt any sort of immediate reaction publicly on the situation with the regulations, the next public update currently planned for the week of the Sebring 1000 Miles next month.
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Old 21 Feb 2019, 11:27 (Ref:3885742)   #6305
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That reads like GG tip-toeing around stuff he knows but can't say publicly.
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Old 21 Feb 2019, 17:19 (Ref:3885786)   #6306
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I will welcome any "major philosophical changes" at this point, for the mess these regulations are
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Old 21 Feb 2019, 20:42 (Ref:3885836)   #6307
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Whatever they do, the ACO know this: they'd better not screw it up. If so, well, my reaction in a GIF:
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Old 21 Feb 2019, 23:27 (Ref:3885863)   #6308
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The ACO is playing with fire. They are on the verge of sending to the rubbish bin a the third consecutive set of rules.

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Old 22 Feb 2019, 03:35 (Ref:3885889)   #6309
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I will welcome any "major philosophical changes" at this point, for the mess these regulations are
I'm not sure if it's talk about a positive change or a negative change. If the talk is about price for a program and it's still too expensive for some at the rates they proposed, then I have a bad feeling that the rules are going to be dumbed down even further. I don't want dpi v.2, I want late-90's GT1 v.2!
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Old 22 Feb 2019, 06:48 (Ref:3885901)   #6310
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Personally, I want prototypes to still look like prototypes. I doubt we'll get back to the '03 Bentley Speed 8 levels of beauty, but I also don't exactly want DPI (which I still wish that IMSA would bite the bullet there and just re-name the class GTP), especially the ones like the Cadillac, Nissan or Acura which are extremely closely related to the LMP2s they're based off of. At least go the Mazda route.

I'd hope that the ACO are able to furnish enough rules set in stone so teams can start on work for the 2021 cars soon.
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Old 27 Feb 2019, 00:44 (Ref:3886955)   #6311
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Minor point maybe, but I read in a Facebook group that I'm a member of a post recommending that the ACO adopt the IMSA/Indy Car leader lights system and ditch the old ALMS podium leader lights system.

As much as the old ALMS leader lights system is better than nothing it's kinda outdated, and the newer system is capable of providing much more info.

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Old 27 Feb 2019, 03:21 (Ref:3886967)   #6312
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Minor point maybe, but I read in a Facebook group that I'm a member of a post recommending that the ACO adopt the IMSA/Indy Car leader lights system and ditch the old ALMS podium leader lights system.

As much as the old ALMS leader lights system is better than nothing it's kinda outdated, and the newer system is capable of providing much more info.
I completely agree that the IMSA/Indy Car leader lights system is much better. I'm also surprised the ACO/WEC hasn't adopted something more modern than what they have; for a series trying to sell their technological relevance, it would seem like a no-brainer.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 17:12 (Ref:3887356)   #6313
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Now we know what is the "major philosophical change"...

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...percar-changes

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The group, which is believed to include McLaren and Ferrari, has proposed that they should be allowed to develop a car for the new category out of a road-going hypercar rather than building a bespoke racing prototype that would incorporate only styling cues from street machinery.

The manufacturers are believed to be arguing for the changes to the rules published in draft form in December on financial and marketing grounds.

It is understood that they contend that the €20million-a-season budget projected by the rulemakers, the FIA and WEC promoter the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, remains too high despite aggressive cost-cutting measures and is also a conservative estimate.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 18:12 (Ref:3887372)   #6314
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I guess it would save money to take an existing car. I don't think the rule makers will be changing anything soon unless they have major players asking for this. What I don't understand is their desire to raise the roof height even further on grounds of safety when you have a GTE car (Ford) that's even lower than the current lmp1's.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 18:16 (Ref:3887374)   #6315
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Now we know what is the "major philosophical change"...

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...percar-changes
they contend that the €20million-a-season budget projected by the rulemakers, the FIA and WEC promoter the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, remains too high

We all said that here. It isn't rocket surgery. It may be a price cut for Toyota, but it's a rise for everybody else. And it requires a factory effort to do it. So you're relying on factory entries, and we all know how that goes.

Same stuff that we (collective we - fans everywhere) have said for years. $80m was stupid. $300m was ludicrous. $20m is still far too much.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 18:22 (Ref:3887378)   #6316
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Yet the privateers get on just fine with a budget that probably is a fraction of that. Why is it so hard to get on with that level (privateer budget) for them? I think there's a couple of manufacturers or maybe even a single one who doesn't want to spend any type of budget over 6 figures. They shouldn't get to bring the whole class down because they want to be 'cheap'. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way but how is it a team like ByKolles or Rebellion or SMP can make a car on a budget that's nowhere compared to what the factories used to spend yet a new factory team can't? I find it a little funny that they need the rules to change in order for them to not spend so much money.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 18:34 (Ref:3887384)   #6317
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Yet the privateers get on just fine with a budget that probably is a fraction of that. Why is it so hard to get on with that level (privateer budget) for them? I think there's a couple of manufacturers or maybe even a single one who doesn't want to spend any type of budget over 6 figures. They shouldn't get to bring the whole class down because they want to be 'cheap'. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way but how is it a team like ByKolles or Rebellion or SMP can make a car on a budget that's nowhere compared to what the factories used to spend yet a new factory team can't? I find it a little funny that they need the rules to change in order for them to not spend so much money.
The privateers don't have to design and build hybrid race cars. They've got jumped up LMP2s with unrestricted engines. Anyone can do that. The ACO wants hybrids and extremely efficient engines. The current LMP1 crop (other than Toyota obviously) are anything but that. If you asked Toyota to build and run an LMP1 privateer car that was just an engine and a chassis then the price would drop dramatically. But fuel efficiency is hard (you're asking the team to get more from less), and hybrids are hard. Aero is hard. Suspension engineers are hard.

There's a difference between designing a hybrid hypercar and buying a Dallara and dropping an unrestricted Gibson into the back of it.

Privateers don't get on fine anyway. The Ginetta is as good as dead, the ByKolles isn't great and sets fire to itself, and all the cars need massive rule breaks to keep up. Whilst I'm enjoying LMP1 and the cars, it's hardly a picture of health and looking good for the future right now.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 20:00 (Ref:3887396)   #6318
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1. I will never understand how 20mln can be a huge sum for a works team at WC level. Some no-name footballers are "bought" with such amount of money.
2. Looks like ACO have killed prototypes at last, after dropping lots of constructors from possible LPM3 and, of course, LMP2 field. Even if they decide to allow that production based hypercars they will have nothing in common with "prototype".
3. Great amount of free time for those who do not want to watch Drivers' Endurance Championship or any of its' feeder series. Yes, personalities and so on, but personalities are not only about drivers but engineers and constructors too.
4. No more constructors in junior formulae, no more constructors in touring (BoP and all that marketing joke have nothing in common with constructors' competition), no more constructors in prototypes. Isn't it a bit worrying?
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 20:15 (Ref:3887399)   #6319
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1. I will never understand how 20mln can be a huge sum for a works team at WC level. Some no-name footballers are "bought" with such amount of money.
Return on investment.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 20:30 (Ref:3887400)   #6320
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they contend that the €20million-a-season budget projected by the rulemakers, the FIA and WEC promoter the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, remains too high

We all said that here. It isn't rocket surgery. It may be a price cut for Toyota, but it's a rise for everybody else. And it requires a factory effort to do it. So you're relying on factory entries, and we all know how that goes.

Same stuff that we (collective we - fans everywhere) have said for years. $80m was stupid. $300m was ludicrous. $20m is still far too much.

lol not to mention recent past audi/porsche season budget, I recall that corvette racing used to spend close to 10 mln $ just for le mans race during 2006-2008 seasons....



20 mln is basically nothing for a really interested manufacturer; the problem actually is that.... there is no manufacturer really interested. I fear that at the end, ACO will let each manufacturer field the car it wishes.

Lacking true tech. regulamentations, guess everything will be bopped to create some kind of artificial appearence of competition.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 20:35 (Ref:3887401)   #6321
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lol not to mention recent past audi/porsche season budget, I recall that corvette racing used to spend close to 10 mln $ just for le mans race during 2006-2008 seasons....



20 mln is basically nothing for a really interested manufacturer; the problem actually is that.... there is no manufacturer really interested. I fear that at the end, ACO will let each manufacturer field the car it wishes.

Lacking true tech. regulamentations, guess everything will be bopped to create some kind of artificial appearence of competition.
Corvette did used to spend that. And now the GT1 class is gone. And Audi used to spend $insane. And they're gone, and that class is basically gone. Corvette don't spend that much now, lol.

Could also argue that teams all used to spend a lot less in all classes. So I'm not sure what that proves. All we know is that teams don't want to spend $20m, and privateers absolutely cannot. So whether anyone agrees or disagrees, the result is we'll have no cars.

Although we appear to be going that way anyway.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 22:04 (Ref:3887418)   #6322
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What I don't understand is their desire to raise the roof height even further on grounds of safety when you have a GTE car (Ford) that's even lower than the current lmp1's.
That GTE car is already less safe for a given speed than the current LMP1s as well. There's a clear trend of back injuries in modern prototypes that they've had rule changes on the table to alleviate for multiple years now but just can't get through.
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Old 28 Feb 2019, 22:44 (Ref:3887428)   #6323
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Corvette did used to spend that. And now the GT1 class is gone. And Audi used to spend $insane. And they're gone, and that class is basically gone. Corvette don't spend that much now, lol.

Could also argue that teams all used to spend a lot less in all classes. So I'm not sure what that proves. All we know is that teams don't want to spend $20m, and privateers absolutely cannot. So whether anyone agrees or disagrees, the result is we'll have no cars.

Although we appear to be going that way anyway.
The only LMP1 OEM that's really left because of "costs" was Peugeot after PSA hit trouble, in every other case it's been done to something else. Even with AMR after their embarrasment

Corvette doesn't have to spend that much anymore because they're in a BoP class now. Back in the day you couldn't just lobby in performance (except for ALMS 2006 and there it was down to Pirelli's incompetence and IMSA briefly thinking like Grand-Am for some reason) but you actually needed to have the best car to win

Nick Daman said it the best on RLM few years ago (in regards to F1): Just allow them to spend whatever they wish. Those that stay, stay, and those that leave, leave. Current LMP1 isn't in trouble because of costs anyway, but due to "natural causes" (and public relation backfires). OEMs, even in groups, always have these cycles of pulling out, every decade. The last time was early 2000's and the previous in the 90's. You may only have Toyota now but the manufacturers which left had internal reasons.

Who knows, had ACO and FIA not pushed the panic button we might have already had another mfg lined up for 2019-2020... You know, if this another "let's reinvent the wheel" (read: stop-gap plan B before zero emission comes around) regulation cycle hadn't been forced upon us. In fact technically we could already have had Ginetta factory entered nonhybrids, but they're not allowed so they're sitting in warehouse.

ACO could've just said "LMP1 cars will continue as it is until 2024 and Zero Emission". Sooner or later another company or more would have jumped in with P1. Not only because of "easier chance to win Le Mans" when only hoing against Toyota, but also because they would be more prepped for the start of Zero Emission once it comes around. And Zero Emission, unlike this GTP, is at least something that can be rationally argued as necessary in the changing world with public opinion shifting, as well as being technological revolution. It won't be cheap either. Nobody needs GTP except for marketing departments. Besides you can already run those road car looking BoP wagons in GTE.

Now, of course the OEMs want to lobby in shoestring budgets and level playing fields for this new formula, I mean if they can choose whether to play it cheap or expensive and easy or difficult, most are always going to choose cheap and easy. Because they can. Just like Formula E and DPi... spec, rebranded and performance balanced. With room for manipulating the outcome. The same ideology goes to proam and whatever else new age as well, once you introduce the can of worms, it becomes the norm. The expected.

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Old 28 Feb 2019, 23:14 (Ref:3887432)   #6324
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People don't realize because it coincided with the GT1 class killing itself anyways, but Corvette Racing's budget was completely gutted about the same time they switched to GT2. They don't even do any of the extra stuff you can still do in a BoP class to improve your odds of winning. Sometimes they've been racing without a spare car at all. If circumstances hadn't happened to work in their fashion I'm sure GM would have shut down Corvette Racing entirely.

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Old 1 Mar 2019, 10:34 (Ref:3887510)   #6325
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I'm quite sure that actual GTE cars cost and have running costs comparable to old GT1 happy days; unlikely BMW and porsche spend less than 15 mln€ for a WEC+LM season effort.

<20 mln for a 2 hypercars WEC season effort is quite impossible if you ask me.
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